Yet another "What should I do with this tired Fisher anvil" thread.

[Gravydavy]

Hi folks,

I hope this post isn't too obnoxious and entitled.

I'm a 66 year old retired mechanic who has been somewhat interested in forging some ferrous metals since my teens. Sometime in the last few decades I acquired a smallish Fisher anvil that appears to have been rode hard and put up wet.  I'm here to ask how to restore it to useful condition on a meager budget.

I've been around various forums for a while, and I know that the usual answer typically involves telling the n00b to go back through the hundreds or thousands of previous posts that have worn out the subject. That is often a good and reasonable response to a new enthusiast who wants to become expert in the subject matter. I have to admit that I'm not one of those people. My body, my budget and my interest level will likely never let me become even moderately skilled at blacksmithing. This site has far too much information for me to get up to speed before asking questions.

At the moment, I'm just here to ask a fairly specific question, and I hope some folks will  put up with me long enough to help me out a bit.

As I mentioned, I have this Fisher anvil:

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

To be honest, I would use just like it is. There is nothing on the hardened face that would prevent it from being just fine as long as it has about 70% rebound. Fisher anvils do not ring very much which makes them great. I sure wouldn't do any more grinding, milling or welding on the face, which does more harm than good. It looks like you have done a little hand sanding which probably didn't remove enough steel to hurt it and hot steel hammered on it will keep it shiny. How much does it weigh?

[Glenn]

Use the anvil for a year (2000) hours.  This will give you time to learn what the anvil can and will do as you build your skills. Look up JABOD (just a box of dirt) to build a forge.  A 2 pound hammer from the flea market and your set.

[Gravydavy]

As you can see, I've taken a flap wheel and some other light finishing tools to it. The face and the edges of the face, along with the hardie and pritchel holes have clearly had a hard life. But the step and horn shine up real nice.  I've read that the top of the step and the horn should be tool steel, just like the face. You can see where the steel part of the step disappears into the iron.

My ambitions at present are limited to rather small decorative work, like plant and bird feeder hangers. Maybe the occasional specialty hand tool. No fancy knives (I have plenty of sharp edged utility tools), no handmade hammers, etc. Pretty much learner/hobby kind of stuff to start with.

What I'm wondering about is whether there is a reasonable way to recover some of the face and edges. I'd like to have a section of the top have a pretty flat, smooth and non-pitted surface, along with some approximately 90 degree corners to work with.

I may have taken as much as .005" off the face in order to make the dings, pitting and wear visible in the photo. I didn't want to do anything that might significantly harm the function. I'd just like to have a fairly smooth and flat patch on it for smaller, prettier pieces and a few inches that resemble corners for making tighter bends.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Mod30
Excessive quoting

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Restoring it would cost more than a new anvil in the same weight. This is the best way to repair/restore the face.

Robb Gunther and Karl Schuler's Anvil Repair Process - Anvils, Swage Blocks, and Mandrels - I Forge Iron

Anvil Restoration

[Glenn]

Find a piece of metal about the width of the anvil face and attach a hardie post so it fits onto the anvil.  This is your new flat anvil face with clean edges.  You can put it on or take it off as needed.

Do not modify the anvil until you have completed the year (2000 hours) of getting to know your anvil.  At that time you will realize that there is nothing wrong with the anvil the way it is.  

There is a section on the site discussing anvil stumps and ways to mount the anvil.  Choose what works for you.

[Gravydavy]

Hey, Glenn, thanks for the advice, but it would be more appropriate if I were 16 or 26.  2000 hours is over 20% of a 9600 hour year going 24/7 without a break. As I mentioned, I'm a 66 year-old retired mechanic. Carpal tunnel syndrome, radial tunnel syndrome, tendinitis, bone spurs, shredded but not quite failed rotator cuffs and seriously inflamed joint bursae make spending endless hours swinging a hammer a non-starter. I'm looking to do what I can with what I still have, without destroying what's left. Please don't take this as a slap at your advice. Younger people who want to become really good at shaping iron would do well to follow your plan. I just don't have the ability or passion to go that way. I want to have some fun and make some enjoyable small pieces.

I agree. Not interested in restoring. Just wondering how to approach making it more useful.

The hardie suggestion is just what I needed. That will give me what this anvil is missing, and will let me explore small-scale ironworking.

 

As far as mounting the anvil, I have plenty of hardwood stumps, but I have a wild xxxx idea that involves a piece of the limestone boulder that I recently cut into sub-1000lb chunks. Mass and resonance damping are useful, right?

Glenn,

Can you suggest a particular steel for the hardie block? I would prefer something that I could weld and machine without having to heat treat. Mild steel seems far too soft for the purpose.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Mod30
Excessive quoting language

[Frazer]

Ok, so hold off for a year then.  The pitting isn't going to make a difference during that time. If you have a welder, weld a piece of square tubing to a block of steel with 4 different radii on it and use it as an anvil block (as mentioned by Glenn). They are handy tools to have regardless. Though, I wouldn't make it as wide as your anvil face since for small pieces you sometimes need the far side of the anvil to come a little closer. If you don't have a welder, perhaps you know someone who may?

The way I see it that is perfectly useful as is and is far better than I had starting out. Just my 2c.

Edit: Missed your response. My anvil block is 4140, which works well. Hardening/tempering is suggested but optional. Even mild is harder than hot steel, so it will work, it just might need to be dressed more often

Edited April 19, 2022 by Frazer

[Gravydavy]

That fits pretty well with my impression.

I have several welders, a very well worn South Bend Heavy 10 lathe, a really pitiful ancient Horrible Fright mill/drill, a bunch of hammers and other hand tools. I'm not a weldor, a machinist or a carpenter, but I can usually put stuff together so it works and stays together.

I really like the anvil block idea as suggested by Glenn, and I hadn't come close to thinking of that on my own. As I asked him, any suggestions for what to make the block out of? I suspect there is a weldable steel that's hard and tough enough to work well.  Maybe 4140 prehard?

Edited April 19, 2022 by Mod30
Excessive quoting

[Frazer]

We're out of sync Gravy! 4140 seems like a good choice, ~1040 would work just as well.

By the way welcome aboard. Take a quick moment moment to read the following to get the most out of the site.

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

You might want to read this too. Also welcome from the Ozark mountains.

The quote feature

[Gravydavy]

That gets me close enough. I didn't really want to try to repair or restore the anvil. My favorite hammers look far worse but they still work and are very comfortable in my hand. The anvil block should take care of all of the issues with the anvil. I have to admit that the anvil's condition is quite comfortable for me. It's been used, and ain't pretty no more, but it's still up for more. I just wanted to be able to have some flat and corner surfaces to work with. A hardie block should get me there.

Oy. So many forums with so many different details.

 

Thanks for the welcome. I don't know if I'll become a regular here. I like working metal, but hammers and my joints aren't besties these days, and I also like riding motorcycles, playing with puppies, using motorized equipment to move dirt and rocks around, and lots of other stuff. I hope to step on the last bus while distracted about a new interest.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Mod30
Excessive quoting

[Gravydavy]

It's going to take me a while to get used to replying here. A number of my posts have been snipped and combined for "excessive quoting". If my posts seem a bit odd and disjointed, that may be the reason. Not complaining, just trying to figure out the rules.

[Gravydavy]

Continuing on with the idea of making this anvil more useful:

In the photo in the OP, the near edge is wobbly, chipped, chunked and damaged, more or less as it goes from left to right. I've got an idea that grinding/dressing it into an increasing radius as it goes from horn to heel might be useful, especially with the option of using a hardie block for flat surfaces and sharp corners. Seems to me that making it kind of a smooth taper/transition might be a useful feature, as opposed to all of the dips, holes, missing bits and wallers in the current edge. Is this a bad idea?

[Glenn]

Your right. Bad idea.

DO NOT MODIFY THE ANVIL.  Using the anvil for a year or 2000 hours (of hammer time) is a number most folks can get their head wrapped around. It is hammer time, not this date next year.  It is just 8 hours a day / 5 days a week, the same as a full time job. Not many are full time smiths, so it may take more than a year to get the 2000 hours accumulated.  Not to worry, your learning at YOUR rate.  After 2000 hours of hammer time you may find those things you consider blemishes are actually features that you learn how to use.

There is no reason to quote what we just read.  If the quotes in your posts get adjusted, do not worry. It is the moderators looking out for you until you figure things out. 

The answers to your questions are also aimed to blacksmiths in over 150 countries of the world, so they can learn as well.  If you additional or specific details, just ask.

The site moves rather quickly, so your question may have several answers in a short while.  Check back early and often to keep up.

If a 2 pound hammer is too heavy or gives you problems, downsize to 1-3/4 pound or 1-1/2 pound so it feels comfortable to use.

We want you to succeed, we just need to figure out how to work together to make that happen.

[Gravydavy]

I can easily wait to modify the anvil until I'm sure I need to. I've waited somewhere between 10 and 20 years just to do some rust removal and shine up the surprisingly intact and smooth horn and step. What's another decade or so?

My "go-to" steelworking hammer used to be a 4lb hickory-handled drilling hammer, but it somehow got inexplicably heavy. At the moment I kinda like the looks of an 800g Picard, although one of the chunkier round pein 2lb blacksmith hammers also looks good. So many hammers, and so little time. And then there's the keeper of the accounts...

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Dave, glad to have you. Nah, don't start grinding shapes in that old lady you THINK might be useful. You haven't been doing this long enough to know what kind of shapes are useful. You'll find all kinds of interesting and useful shapes there already.

The horn provides all the fullers you're likely ever going to need. A fuller is a round surface, envision a piece of round rod or axe ground to a round edge, you hammer hot steel on to draw the steel in two directions. Picture how a chisel pushes material in two directions when you cut. Now picture a really blunt chisel that forces the steel in two directions without cutting. The smaller the radius the deeper and faster it moves steel. Make sense?

Apply that thought to the horn, the point roughs steel close to what you want and the wider areas smooth it. Hmmmm?

A square, smooth, heck polished like a mirror even, bottom tool for the hardy is only ONE option for bottom tools, there is the mother tool of the hardy hole the Hardy, a hot cut chisel to cut, split, etc. stock, picture making a carving fork. Then there is the cold hardy, a more obtuse cold chisel, butchers are single bevel hot or cold chisels, some sharp, some with a radiused edge. Very useful tools, all. Then there are fullers of whatever radius suits your needs. Lastly for the main bottom tools are the swages, these are hollow forms you drive hot steel into. Straight swages are half round "trenches." (I can't think of the right term, aphasia strikes again.) A straight swage can be used to true up a tenon or say a round shaft so it can be threaded. Say you're forging a 1/2 bolt, you start with 3/4" square bar set shoulders where you want the bottom of the head and forge the shaft close to your 1/2" round then you refine it in a swage block and because this is getting threaded you use a top swage to make it 1/2" round and straight. Make sense?

There are all kinds of shapes a swage can make, a hex head for the above bolt? Oh yeah, acorns for a decorative fire place screen, rope, whatever you can imagine. Say 50 identical leaves or dog paw prints for key chains for your dog loving friends. Hmmm?

Top tools like the above top swage, top tools are struck tools, you set it on the stock and hit the top of the tool with a hammer. They come in all shapes like swages fullers and chisels. A hot cut top tool is extremely useful I have a small set, maybe 8-9 from small, 1/2" wide to the big boy who is almost 2" wide. Flatters are very handy top tools, they do exactly what the name implies. They turn a forged surface desk top smooth by laying it on the piece and beating it with a hammer till you like it. 

The only limit is your imagination and need. Believe me it won't be long before you'll have a pretty wide selection of different tools to make life easier at the anvil.

Something you should buy early are a couple pair of tongs, you can to a lot by forging the end of stock long enough it isn't hot where you hold it but you WILL need to hold short pieces and tongs are a must. They're not terribly hard to forge  but more of an intermediate level project. 

I think I've said more than enough for now, I can get carried away. Please do stick around, we love helping folks further their addiction to playing with fire and beating steal into submission with hammers.

Ooh, you just posted! My go to for starting people is a 2lb. drill hammer, it's plenty heavy enough to move metal and light enough not to do too much damage until you learn good hammer control, the shorter handle improves accuracy (control). I LIKE hockey sticks for handles on top tools, I can pick up broken ones at any high school gym free during hockey season. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Gravydavy]

Frosty,

Thanks for all of the comments. It's nice to be on a forum where posters compete to be helpful.

I used to have really good hammer control until my joints got worn out, wonky and wobbly and the essential tremor started making me shaky. Now it's more a matter of damage control. Getting old sucks, but it beats the alternative.

[Frosty]

You're welcome Dave, it's my pleasure. Literally I enjoy sharing what I know. I don't spend a lot of time at the anvil so I hang out here and talk to folks. 

I use a technique hammering that's really easy on the joints and with a little practice hits harder for less effort than the common grip. It works well with a regular hammer handle but works best with a slab handle. I make handles from 5/4" clear straight grain hickory I get from a cabinetry lumber supply. 

Below is a pic of a turning (rounding) hammer a friend helped me make from piece of broken pickup truck axle. His pickup truck unfortunately but . . . 

The handle is what I want to show you, it tapers wider from the head to the end, I put the knob on the end so it would be less likely to slip out of my hand before I used it. It's not necessary, I've never had one of these slip out of my hand but the knob is grandfathered in and they all get one. 

DANG, I can't find a pic of the handle edge on. Anyway, I don't hold the handle I let it pivot between my thumb and my index finger. When I start a swing the hammer is back against the web of my hand and just before impact I grip the handle and the hammer snaps forward. This does two things, First it puts another pivot point in the swing and every pivot point is a force and velocity multiplier, my swing cracks the whip with the hammer. HAH! found a pic showing the handle thickness just as I was shutting the comp down!. They aren't my turning hammer. The clean one is a yard sale 3lb. cross pein and the dirty hammer is a cross pein the same friend made for me as a get well present after the accident.

Secondly and more important for the joints is on impact I'm not holding the hammer tightly, it's free to rebound back to the web of my hand. My joints take no impact forces, zero. All the shock and recoil of the hammer just pivots the hammer handle between index finger and thumb. It's the same principle as a fencing grip. The tapered hammer handle is easy to grip very lightly, if it starts to slip you automatically tighten up reflexively and you still don't hole it hard. 

Somewhere I have a series of pics I shot showing how the hammer pivots in my grip. I'll post them when I find them but I gotta walk the dogs and go to bed, I have one telling me it's time to hit the rack. A dog is better keeping time than the atomic clock. I swear. 

G'nite Dave. (that's two edits after I said good night. This time I MEAN IT. Good night Dave)

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Frf]

roy/frf

hi frosty. we custom make and fit all our hammer handles. we use ash instead of hickory. much easier on the joints. the ash has some kind of shock absorbing capability. try it out, you will like it. i spend a lot of time during our classes explaining and demonstrating the proper holding of the hammer to our students. for the trade, roy from frf

[George N. M.]

Davy, welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming.  You sound like someone who will fit in here very well.  We have folk who have been hitting hot metal for decades and others who are green as grass.  Ages range from early teens to late 70s.  Education from drop outs to advanced degrees.  There is a huge amount of collective experience and wisdom here in many, many areas of human endeavor.  About the only restrictions are to avoid political, religion, or other controversial subjects and don't put in anything you wouldn't want your 10 year old grand daughter reading.

A fair number of us are your age or older and have various physical limitations.  Blacksmithing does not need to be very demanding on your body.  You are letting gravity do a lot of the work rather than really forcefully whacking down on the metal.  Very often lighter blows will get you to where you want to be faster than really hitting hard.  Also, there are various hammer techniques which minimize impact on your body.  Holding the hammer lightly and sort of whipping it forward as you swing down is one of them.

I strongly suggest that you find the nearest blacksmithing group in your area and attend their events.  They love newcomers and there is nothing like in person instruction.  Many of us, myself included, started out as lone eagles and that is not the preferred way to to do things.  There are some good instructional videos on You Tube (and some really bad, dangerous ones).  I like the ones from Black Bear Forge, JPL Services (our own Jennifer), and Torbjorn Ahman (from Sweden).  There is a young fellow named Alex Steel who does a lot of videos but I find his presentation style a bit annoying.  Also, there are good books around.  Being old and old fashioned I like real books.

As to your anvil, it is perfectly usable as is.  Any restoration if you MUST should follow the Gunter/Schuler technique which involves heating the anvil to several hundred degrees and using hard faced welding rods to build up an new face.  It can get pricey and the welder HAS to know what they are doing.  Not a job for a hobby of apprentice welder.

Again, glad to have you.

George Monsson

dba Westmarch Forge

Laramie, WY

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

11 hours ago, Gravydavy said:

the near edge is wobbly, chipped, chunked and damaged,

I thought the same when I acquired this 106 pound Hay Budden. It's edges are much worse than yours appear to be. I'm glad I took everyone's advice and waited. I have found that some of the edge damage is actually useful and I still use the anvil as it was when I got it four years ago.

However I do have several other anvils with better edges when needed. My first anvil is a 110 pound Vulcan that I found when I first started out in the mid '80s which I still use. I's quiet like a Fisher and that chip was there when I got it. I will bet if you use the TPAAAT anvils will find you. We have a total of five anvils.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Irondragon ForgeClay Works
Add another anvil

[JHCC]

7 hours ago, George N. M. said:

the Gunter/Schuler technique

I believe that the Gunther/Schuler technique (not to be confused with Gunther Schuller, the American composer who lived from 1925 to 2015) was originally developed for anvils with wrought iron bodies (Peter Wright, Hay Budden, etc), but works equally well for those with cast iron bodies (Fisher, Vulcan, etc) so long as you put a layer of NI rod down first.

[ThomasPowers]

If you need a "perfect face" you can always pick up an "improvised anvil" and use it and dress it as needed as it won't have the thin hardened layer that is the LIFE of an old anvil.

I decided to start taking one to do demos with as so many folks are scared off of the craft because of the price of London Pattern Anvils these days:

20 UScents a pound when I bought it at the scrap yard, prices have gone up to 25 now.

[Frosty]

I started taking a no weld brick pile forge to demos for the same reason. Though NARB didn't intimidate as many folks as my old shop forge. Most any guy can get their head around some plumbing parts, insulating fire brick, angle iron and all thread. 

I'd take an improvised anvil for the same reason but all the scrap yards are operating under single buyer contracts and nobody's allowed in. <sigh>

Frosty The Lucky.