3/8" Frosty T Burner (photo heavy)

[Frosty]

Our initial thoughts are the same and I admit to not pursuing it farther than the first try. I just didn't see close to the improvement either of us would expect with an increase of more than 1/4" dia. of the intake ports. 

My thoughts about the threads and Mr. Bernoulli are speculation but it fits what I observed within the limits of my experience. It's the simplest explanation that fits. I call it Occam's club, it MAY be what's going on.

But PLEASE feel free to take a stroll down this rabbit hole, I'm sure you'll have the answer in no time. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Nope; I can spend months and years in rabbit holes; these days I tries to leave them alone, and briar patches too, by gum!

Anyway, we are both just waiting to see how his latest burner turns out, right?

[Andrew LB]

Finally got time to test it. It lit right up and i varied the throttle from 15psi down to probably under 1psi and it held the flame nicely. Judging by the color, it's burning a lean correct? I'm going to tap the other fitting that the printer nozzle screws into but first shave the 1/8-27 section down about 1/8" so the tip of the nozzle sits right in the middle of the air intakes when viewed from the side. I hear that's the sweet spot. I also tested it in the mini forge without this reduction coupling on it and instead using a merchant coupling that was straight. It ran pretty good but would occasionally "burp" for lack of a better term. Never went out or anything. Got real orange inside with faint blue flames coming out the front. Here is a vise shot of it in action as per the tradition on these forums. Also one in the dark which looked much more blue with the naked eye. Must be a camera thing.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Mod30
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[Frosty]

Oh come ON Mike, it isn't like it's a warren with many branching rabbit burros to get lost in. It's a simple question, you should come up with the answer in an easy afternoon. 

Mike's better at reading flame than I but it looks a little rich to me.

When you shorten the fitting so the jet is farther back from the mixing tube it WILL lean the mix. You might want to try trimming the jet on this burner a LITTLE at a time and see where the sweet spot on YOUR burner is before you make large adjustments to the next one.

T burners I make run nicely around 15psi but nowhere near as low as that. That might indicate cleaning the threads out did indeed improve induction for you. 

Also I strongly recommend people ignore what psi other people's burners run under. There are four, 3/4" Ts on my too large shop forge and all of them run best under different psi. It's not a big difference, a couple few psi and maybe 5 for the largest difference. I built them all at the same time using my lathe and parts purchased at the same place and time. They're as close to the same as I could make them without getting out the instrumentation.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Frosty has it right. Your burner's flame is a little rich. Probably, the flame will combust completely before exiting your forge; trying that would be the next step. If not, go to the next smaller 3D printer nozzle...BUT, don't be surprised if that makes a slitely lean flame. Fortunately, there are wire files in sets of torch tip cleaners, so you can enlarge an undersized gas orifice to suit; always supposing that you are looking for perfection, rather than merely addequate performance...

[localsmith]

Nice burner but that burner is going to scale up work quickly. That flame is very hard. 

To clarify, there's purple at the end of your flame envelope (first pic) and that flame is straight blue. I don't know why Mikey and Frosty are saying that the flame is too reducing or fuel rich. 

[Buzzkill]

I wouldn't rely too much on the tertiary flame color in open air (i.e. excess oxygen) to judge the atmosphere it would produce in a forge. 

[Frosty]

Hands on experience maybe? How many NA burners have you built, or helped tune for people, localsmith?

Right you are Buzz, another consideration for evaluating the flame as rich, it will be even richer in a forge.

Frosty The Lucky.

[pnut]

13 hours ago, localsmith said:

I don't know why Mikey and Frosty are saying that the flame is too reducing or fuel rich. 

One is the designer of the Frosty T burner and Michael Porter literally wrote a book about forge burners. I'd take what they have to say about forge burners seriously. 

Pnut

[Scott NC]

  Well put, pnut.

[Mikey98118]

The primary and secondary flame envelopes are both fuel rich. The tertiary (third and final ) flame envelope is lean do to super-heated oxygen molecules that failed to be completely combusted in the primary and secondary flame envelopes). But yes, that lean flame will be probably be combusted within a super-heated forge atmosphere--probably--and if it is, then good enough is good enough.

Looking for answers in a tertiary flame is like trying to  figure out what caused  a hydraulically car to be wreaked by paying close attention of the tire marks were it slid off the road. All  "why" answers depend on paying attention to the beginning of the accident; not its concluding moves.

So, when I say a flame is rich or lean, I am always speaking about he primary flame envelope, because that is where the action begins, and the overall effects of all the flame envelopes will conform to it. For instant the tertiary flame looks lean, and so it is. But along with that flame, which you can see, is a load of un-combusted fuel gas, which you can't see. Clear as mud, right?

 

So why would I have such a relaxed view of this particular flame? Because, despite its complicated ooks, it is so close to perfect, that a minor trick will make everything fall right into place

[Andrew LB]

Thanks for the info.  I'm going to drill and tap the other T fitting and

7 hours ago, pnut said:

One is the designer of the Frosty T burner and Michael Porter literally wrote a book about forge burners. I'd take what they have to say about forge burners seriously. 

I never doubted them for a moment. I was under the impression that when you're running lean its indicated by the yellowish flame kinda like how my gas range in my kitchen, the flame turns yellow when you blow on it. Upon further inspection and the advice of Frosty and Mike, it's definitely running rich. I need to lean it out some because when i use it in the forge with a merchant coupler as a nozzle instead of this reducer, it goes out if above 5 psi. I'm using a 0.6mm 3d printer nozzle. Maybe i should use one a little smaller? I know on the bigger versions, people use either a .030 or .035 MIG tip. 0.6mm = .0236". ill cut down an .030 MIG tip and see how that works. Here is a video of it burning while set up exactly how the photo i posted yesterday was.

 

[pnut]

That's a little monster. I can't wait to see it fully tuned.  It kinda reminds me of the burners my friend uses for glass. 

Pnut

[Frosty]

Put it in the forge and try it before you change anything. Unless you're making a hand held torch. 

What is it with people Mike? You tells em and tells em and they still insist on testing and tuning the things for a place they aren't going to be used.

I've been making the darned things for probably 30 years and tune them where I'm going to use it.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Andrew LB]

So here is how it runs in the little forge. The video is about 10 minutes after i fired it up and as you can see it gets pretty hot. Made a 1/4" thick piece of steel glow in just a few minutes. I think im going to re-do the burner in the 3/8" or 1/2" version and make it out of stainless steel. This was taken at around 4-5 psi.

 

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Put it in the forge and try it before you change anything. Unless you're making a hand held torch. 

What is it with people Mike? You tells em and tells em and they still insist on testing and tuning the things for a place they aren't going to be used.

I've been making the darned things for probably 30 years and tune them where I'm going to use it.

Frosty The Lucky.

Oh i had it in the forge. it was just easier to take pictures of it outside the forge. Nobody is ignoring you. In fact i'm very grateful that such an experienced person giving advice. Speaking of hand-held... it works great for brazing aluminum. lol.

[Mikey98118]

So, what I see first, is that little forge getting plenty hot. Second, I see heavy exit flames, which I would normally put down to the need to turn your gas pressure down, except that those flame have an an orange tinge. So, we need to suspend judgement on the exit flames for a while, to see if it is do to calcium binder in the new refractory burning off. Over all, I'd say to pat yourself on the back, and give the forge more time to settle in, before making any more changes.

[Frosty]

NA burners perform differently in or out of a forge. Showing us pic of it running outside doesn't give us good information. 

Also a pic in the opening of a HOT forge doesn't let us see the flame either. Pics of a HOT forge taken from the side so we can see the dragon's breath and evaluate it is good info. The orange flame in the dragon's breath is to be expected, it's still oxidizing the calcites in the refractory but it's extending pretty far from the opening. It might mellow out as the refractory cures but watch out for Carbon Monoxide.

She looks good and HOT but it might be forming more CO than a neutral flame would. Not that ANY CO is OK, do you have a CO monitor? Great ventilation is a really good idea too.

You're good Andrew, If I came across a little curmudgeonly it wasn't directed at you. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

20 hours ago, Andrew LB said:

Speaking of hand-held... it works great for brazing aluminum. lol.

What kind and brand of filler rod are you using. Inquiring minds always want to know these things

[Andrew LB]

On 3/8/2022 at 3:12 PM, Mikey98118 said:

What kind and brand of filler rod are you using. Inquiring minds always want to know these things

I just used a Bernzomatic aluminum brazing rod. The overpriced ones that come in a 2 pack from big orange. To my surprise the handle hasn't fallen off yet.

On 3/7/2022 at 8:58 PM, Frosty said:

NA burners perform differently in or out of a forge. Showing us pic of it running outside doesn't give us good information. 

Also a pic in the opening of a HOT forge doesn't let us see the flame either. Pics of a HOT forge taken from the side so we can see the dragon's breath and evaluate it is good info. The orange flame in the dragon's breath is to be expected, it's still oxidizing the calcites in the refractory but it's extending pretty far from the opening. It might mellow out as the refractory cures but watch out for Carbon Monoxide.

She looks good and HOT but it might be forming more CO than a neutral flame would. Not that ANY CO is OK, do you have a CO monitor? Great ventilation is a really good idea too.

You're good Andrew, If I came across a little curmudgeonly it wasn't directed at you. 

Frosty The Lucky.

Crap. I thought i had hit send for my lengthy response but apparently windows update ate the message.

Long story short, I do have a CO monitor and the side door to the garage is open and the garage itself is half way up. I also have one of those 20" metal shop fans (the ones that are self propelled if sitting on smooth concrete) blowing air towards the open door. I also keep my new 10lb ABC extinguisher nearby

 

Also, I decided to make the 1/2" version of the Frosty T with a .035 MIG tip and WOW does that thing put out some serious heat. Much more so at the same PSI from the tank, so i'm assuming that means the additional air made a huge difference in combustion.

I decided to line a bucket with 2.5" of Perlite and portland cement, then a layer of Kaowool, all coated in Satanite to make a small melting foundry. With that 1/2" burner I had aluminum melting in around 5 minutes. Fed in a couple crutches i had cut into pieces and poured an aluminum ingot that then broke because it was stuck to the little bread pan i poured it into. Messing around with molten aluminum is quite an experience. I had read a post from you a number of years ago about how dangerous it is, and i can totally see how things can go sideways if you're not super careful.

 

I also made my very first knife from something other than an old Nicholson file. It's just a little japanese petty knife (photo taken prior to sharpening) and it's sharp enough to shave my arm. It's made from 1095 steel. Handle is walnut, steel, and some light hardwood scrap i had in the garage. I'm currently working on a Sujihiki knife.

 

 

[Andrew LB]

Hmm... wasn't thinking when i started making this Sujihiki knife. My mini-forge isn't long enough to handle a 240mm blade. lol. It just needs a little more work and i can heat treat and temper it before final finishing. I'm starting to regret not turning this 5 gallon air tank i have into a forge. hmm..  Here is the knife in progress.

 

[Frosty]

I guess you didn't read what the experienced forge builders here say about using Portland cement in furnace construction did you? It's not only a bad refractory in any capacity it's failure mode id generally catastrophic. The water bound molecularly to form a hard material turns back to steam much above 240f resulting is violent spalling. 

That isn't just a poor design for a furnace/melter refractory wall it's dangerous. Spalling Portland cement could easily tip a crucible over and spill the melt. Does your melter have a drain to allow a failed crucible or spilled melt to escape in a SAFE manner?

The "ingot" of aluminum was overheated in the crucible and looks oxidized all through judging by what I can see of the break. If you want good aluminum pours you want it BARELY melted. Then again crutches are aluminum alloyed for extrusion rather than casting so, who knows what you'll get. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Does your melter have a drain to allow a failed crucible or spilled melt to escape in a SAFE manner?

Half the design work we did on casting furnaces was dedicated to the assumption that anyone doing much of that work would suffer crucible failure. Not only must there be a drain hole in the furnace bottom, but it must be large enough to insure quick and sure removal of the crucible's content.

The burner must be positioned high enough above the furnace floor to keep liquid metal out during crucible failure.

Anything used to raise the height of the crucible should have pathways built into its underside to allow liquid metal free flow to and through the drain hole.

Then there was the steel container filled with sand that must be positioned below the grain hole to safely contain all that liquid metal, while it cools

Then there are to tongs and stick kept to help clean up the mess while the furnace is still hot.

[ThomasPowers]

*DRY* sand!

[Frosty]

A tray of dry sand is perfect for holding molds in position while you pour too. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Should we mention that the flame should be aimed so that it doesn't impinge on the crucible, so that it is less likely to contribute to early crucible failure?