problem with forge. Welding temp

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I find that my power hammer is detrimental to forge welding billets. To get good at forge welding is how to get to Carnegie Hall, practice, practice, practice.

[tinkertim]

On 10/29/2020 at 4:15 PM, Mikishelby said:

I have e-mailed couple of places if they sell Kast o lite 30 as you have suggested. I have found Zirconium for the second option but Cant seem to find Silica liquid

Hi Miki,
The rules of this Forum don't allow direct links to products on commercial websites, so you might get a warning about your link above. (And I might for quoting your link!)

Your link is to the wrong stuff.

If you looked at the top of page 2 of the link I attached in my previous reply, you will have seen the Google searches needed to find the Zircopax and Colloidal Silica solution you need, to do the flame-face coating I've used.

GOOGLE: scarva en gb zircopax

GOOGLE: ulster ceramics morisol x30

Read all 3 pages of the link I sent you, as there is important information about how to mix & apply the coating, and only mix as much as you need, in a disposable cup, as the Zircopax will harden at the bottom if left.

Tink!

[Frosty]

On 10/28/2020 at 8:08 PM, Welshj said:

Am I thinking right folks?

Yes, that's about right.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

7 hours ago, tinkertim said:

I have e-mailed couple of places if they sell Kast o lite 30 as you have suggested.

It is not a case of all or nothing. Any high alumina hard refractory will do as a base. There are alumina spheres and silicon spheres on the market; both are used for various purposes, including as a concrete additive. Making your own refractory in an attempt to save money is stupid; when you can't buy what you need, its suddenly smart

[Frosty]

Well . . . or a sign of an incurable tinkerer. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

See? Just as I said; smart. Life makes us all crazy anyway; why not lean into it?

[Frosty]

I like the adage, "If it's stupid and it works, it isn't stupid." 

Crazy is how we cope with life. I don't suffer from insanity, I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Leaning into the curves is a good idea. Sometimes I just sit down and slide for the ride. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Yes. Its good to take time out and just grin.

[Mikishelby]

I haven't been able to do anything with the forge this weekend. and I had no replies regarding cast-o-lite30 so I guess it would be hard to get it and the second option might be better. Just one question guys I know I have asked before but do I have to put a hard cast in the forge? I thought that ceramic fibre and rigirazer would be enough...

although when i had the forge up for about 3h constantly on i noticed that the rigirzer becomes almost as water and I even seen it drip couple of times from ceramic . 

if what i have at the moment is not enough, do i have to cover the whole forge with the cast or just bottom bricks would be enough? when i was building forge I sort of went far away from casts because I know they take long to heat up and I knew that I would be using a lot of gas already because of the size of the forge.

just asking so I know how much stuff I will order

sorry for being stubborn

[JHCC]

1 hour ago, Mikishelby said:

Just one question guys I know I have asked before but do I have to put a hard cast in the forge?

Yes.

1 hour ago, Mikishelby said:

I thought that ceramic fibre and rigirazer would be enough...

No.

Ceramic fiber/fibre and rigidizer give you insulation and structural stability, but they don't have enough resistance to getting bumped or torn. That can lead to ceramic fibers/fibres being released into the air, which is Not Good.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Before we knew about Kast-o-Lite 30 we coated the fiber with a 1/2 inch layer of Satanite and then a coating of Bubble Alumina. It has worked very well for us so far. You might check to see if someone near you has or can get it.

[Mikey98118]

 

were you actually asking if there is an acceptable alternative to Kasto-O-ite 30? There are several. Any sealing layer will do. The cheapest and easiest is Plistex, but there are lots of others. including home formulas that people on this group have come up with.

[Frosty]

Yes Miki, you want a layer of armor and flame face on the inside surface of your forge liner.  Kastolite works well and you can order small quantities from Glenn see the BLUE border at the top of the page. The IFI store. 

There are alternatives to Kastolite but Glenn offers them in smaller quantities for a decent price. Buy a little more than you think you'll need. I don't know what the area of your forge liner is but can tell for sure the wrinkles from using 2" ceramic blanket WILL increase what you need. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[tinkertim]

The problem for Miki will be getting Kast-o-lite30 in Ireland.

Seems easy in the USA, but is not easy in the UK.

That is why I went with the Zircopax/Colloidal-Silica slurry coating.  Easy to get hold of in the UK, efficient on gas, easy to patch. Ticks my boxes for a hobbyist.

Tink!

[Frosty]

Zircopax and bentonite makes a good kiln wash but takes a long time to dry before you can fire it if applied in thicker layers. IIRC the ratio that worked well was 97% zircopax to 3% max. bentonite or "bentone" these were established by tests done by a member in the Netherlands.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikishelby]

Thanks guys. I've looked hard and finally got a hold of one 25k bag of (kast o lite 30 LI)

I am waiting for them to send me Invoice with delivery charge... so fingers crossed I will have it by end of next week.

I had no time to do anything with the forge last weekend, it was crazy at work and then i had to change bearing and brakes in the car.

Hopefully I will go this weekend and move those burners back to be flush with ceramic.

currently as i mentioned before i have 2x 2" ceramic and on the left hand side 2" ceramic with half soft firebricks, Bottom is made of 2" ceramic and 5 Full size soft firebricks...

Should I take away the Side Wall Bricks and just wrap the whole lot with extra 2" ceramic on top of what i originally had the forge build? (That would make 4" ceramic on walls and 2" ceramic base with fire bricks)

or should i just keep the 2" as i have originally planned when i first build the forge?

The forge walls are 920mm long (36"), 330mm wide (13") and 360mm high (14")

that gives you inside diameter with 2" ceramic and fire bricks of:

920 (36") long

230 (9") wide 

185 (7") high

. once i have the burners pulled back in ceramic and forge coated in cast o lite what would be the next steps? just wondering so i can get ahead in case i need to pre order anything, i know you said my burners are out of tune...

I so much appreciate all of your advices, Thank you so much for even bringing me to this point.

[Buzzkill]

On 10/29/2020 at 6:18 PM, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said:

I find that my power hammer is detrimental to forge welding billets. To get good at forge welding is how to get to Carnegie Hall, practice, practice, practice.

I prefer to set the welds by hand hammer, but when it comes time to draw them out for re-stacking, power machinery is the way to go.  For me at least I'd say it takes about 1/5 as much time (or even less) with the power hammer compared to a hand hammer.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I agree and should have pointed that out. Sometimes what's in my head doesn't come out of my fingers. I was referring to setting the welds as I've seen many folks try to set the weld with a power hammer. Now using a press is another thing. I wish I had a press, maybe some day..

[Mikey98118]

What about his question guys?

[Frosty]

The forge is much too large to start with. 36" long is a typical beginner's mistake. You can't work more than about 6" at a time in a meaningful manner. Heating steel without refining the grain under the hammer causes excessive grain growth (crystal growth) and embrittlement. You can heat treat effectively by passing a long object back and through the forge AND you REALLY NEED to be paying close attention to the steel when you're heat treating anyway so having to stand there, holding it and manipulating it constantly is a GOOD THING.

A forge that size will burn more than 2x the fuel one half it's size and I'd cut it down to about 10" long and that'd bump fuel economy to about 1/4. The thing to remember is you and I have different needs in a forge. NARB my latest is way larger than necessary, the ID is 4.5" x 5" x 18" I was thinking I'd be able to partition the sides and run a 9"L forge most of the time but it didn't work too well. I have a different one on the drawing boards but once again it's too large. I've been scratching my head trying to get what I'll want occasionally without having to feed the beast all the time. 

If you have to use IFBs put them under the blanket where they have a chance of some longevity. Definitely lose the split brick flame impingement face, KOL will do a better job more economically. If for some reason you NEED a heat sink you can include split hard brick or a more desirable steel pipe muffle. 

You built a beautiful shell it's just WAY too large.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Mikishelby]

7 hours ago, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said:

I was referring to setting the welds

any tips? how do you do it?

[Mikishelby]

Frosty

I cut it or would i be able to just block majority of it off by forming a wall from ceramic?

i have enough ceramic to build a smaller forge probably if i really need to but i would have to check...

I thought ive made it too long. when it comes to forge size i had no guides to go by and i tought if i ever will be making a sword or anything of that type i won't have a problem with heating it up. wrong thinking  mine is nearly double of your big forge 

 

I guess you have a nice workshop sounds fun, do you do it full time?

 

What is : IFBs?

and KOL?

I have thermomether now and today i have pushed back the burners so they dont stick out and checked temps

Forge at around 0.8 bar of gas was sitting at just over 1200celcius 2200F

and heated 20 x 20mm (0.78") square bar to just over 1000celcius 1800F

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

IFB = insulated fire bricks  KOL =  Kast-O-Lite refractory.

As far as describing setting the weld in print is hard for me but I'll try. I heat the billet and brush it. Then heat to high yellow and let it soak in the fire, to get it heated all the way through. Then I turn the heat up and bring it to almost sparking and have my hammer in hand and bring the billet to the anvil and hit it as soon as it touches the anvil. Not too hard, more like a heavy tap. I work from the center out to the edges and if the billet starts to cool it goes back in the forge. Done right I can feel the steel stick together.

[Frosty]

Oh no, my BIG forge is WAY larger than yours, it's a 4 burner with a 24" x 24" floor and 4 1/2" sidewalls. The lid is on a jack so I can increase the height to silly. I intended it as a variable volume/geometry forge, run one burner in a small chamber or arrange bricks for special shape or size chambers.  It works beautifully, only I've never needed more than 2 burners in a 5" x 18" chamber and that rarely. 

I knew it was over kill when I built it but I had planned on doing larger work. 

I'm a hobbyist with rare lapses into paying jobs. 

I do have a nice shop but it got turned into storage I haven't been able to tame. I barely got the shop weathered in when I got hit by a tree I was felling when it kicked back. I've never finished it, I was hoping to get electric out to it last summer but . . . We all know where our plans went last summer. Maybe next summer, I'd love to be able to plug some of my 220v stuff in.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[ThomasPowers]

The way I describe setting a weld is to hit it "firmly but not sharply".  Hitting too hard and fast tends to bounce the pieces apart.  A renowned pattern welder used to demonstrate setting welds with a wooden hammer handle.