Bjorn makes sharp things. My beginners log book

[SLAG]

Ritual 'killing' of objects during burial rites are found at archeological sites all over the middle east. it was practiced by numerous cultures, and religions, for over many thousands of years.

Such artifacts are found all over the world, e.g. in Asia and central and south America .

examples of that are metal objects that have been bent, or broken in half etc. Smashed pottery is especially common.

SLAG.

[George N. M.]

The first culture that comes to mind because it is "local" for me is the Anaszi of the American southwest.  Many of the pots have a hole knocked in them to "kill" them.

Breaking or killing of grave goods may have also been a means of discouraging looters.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Bonnskij]

Interesting that so many cultures reached the conclusion that destroying grave goods was the appropriate course of action. Unless that is something that survived from the earliest civilisations and was carried over with all the great human migrations.

Also imagine if they were wrong and the deceased only ended up in the afterlife with a bunch of broken pottery and bent knives.

[JHCC]

Also plenty of cultures that didn't: the ancient Egyptians spring to mind.

[ThomasPowers]

However the killing of "servants" or animals like Horses to provide service in the afterlife is not a rare thing; luckily a lot of cultures decided that by making "copies" of the people to inter would work.  (The clay army of the Chinese emperor is a classic example.)

Even today some cultures burn "fake money" to provide funds in the afterlife!

[Bonnskij]

I guess there are all sorts of funeral rituals. Good thing the ritual killing is over with (at least I hope it is).

Some more things I've just finished up: keychains/ emergency pocket flail.

[ThomasPowers]

Looks like those would wear out a pocket pretty fast.

[Frosty]

Thank you Bjorn, that's better information than I've seen. I'm not a bladesmith but questions about this style knife come up often enough I like knowing a little about them, at least for conversation sake. 

Having good archeological data on size and profile answers a lot of what the new guys in our club are asking. 

The handles on these make me think they're utility knives not intended for heavy use, say for boning and cutting joints at camp rather than cleaning and skinning at a kill site.

Personally I've never had use for that much belly in a blade, I always used my Buck hunting knife to clean and skin game and it has too much belly for every day use. Cutting potatoes, carrots and such around a camp fire maybe but . . . 

I love archeological finds, artefacts, article, etc. Thank you. I'm hoping George hunts up some more good stuff, even if it isn't this particular type blade or heck blades at all. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Bonnskij]

On 5/1/2021 at 12:15 AM, ThomasPowers said:

Looks like those would wear out a pocket pretty fast.

Haha!  That is quite possible.

[Bonnskij]

My pleasure Frosty! I'm happy you find it interesting. I love archaeology myself, but it can be so hard to find accurate information online. Google seems more like a shop directory these days. I'm glad if i'm able to give back to the community.

You're probably right that they're not intended for heavy use. The one i'm working on feels comfortable, but almost like a pocket knife. Small and easy to reach for to do minor tasks.

I wish there was more information available that could narrow down the use for the knives a bit though. I never find information on the weight or photos from the back or front to show the edge geometry. More information on the chemical composition could also be useful. It is always listed as made from iron, but on unimusportalen there's even antique sabers listed as being made from iron, and i don't believe that. Are they actually iron? Are they steel? Do any of them have a forge welded edge?

I have been trying to find out more about what was found along with the knives that were gravefinds, but have reached a dead end. I might try to contact the museum. Hopefully they're accommodating.

Bit much belly for my taste too. I saw someone on youtube suggest they were kitchen knives, but i feel that other period knives such as large seaxes or belt knives would be better for that.

Archaeology and ancient history is an absolutely fascinating subject! I hope George finds something fascinating as well, and i will continue digging myself on my end.

Looking through the catalogues of archaeological finds, i feel that archaeologists could benefit from insights from blacksmiths, hunters, tradies and the general public really. I see that the seax of beagnoth is officially a high status weapon and the runes are implied to have magical qualities. Someone on Tod's workshops channel on youtube suggested however that it was the final test of an apprentice smith, and i love that theory!

Personally i am much more interested in every day tools and utility knives from ancient times than i am in weapons, but it seems to be much harder to find information on the former than the latter.

 

[Bonnskij]

Just came across another little tidbit from the archaeological museum that might be interesting. Doesn't come with a photo but describes a curved knife (found 1858. Description from the same time I believe: "kidneyshaped object in iron. Sharp along the outer edge. 8.5cm long, 3.2cm wide, 1.0cm thick".

My knife is coming along with a similarly chonky 7mm thickness (distally tapering to zero). Not sure if my interpretation is historically correct though.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Have you read "Knives and Scabbards, Museum of London"  isbn 0-11-290440-8  310 blades all drawn to scale with cross sections and metallographic analysis of many of them. Includes a couple of folding knives and shears and has the best info I've seen on the construction and tooling of leather knife sheaths from that period. (12th-15th centuries)  The 3 pages of bibliography may be of use to you as well as the chapter on "Manufacturing Techniques". This may be too late for your period of interests; but they show a lot of what we would like to know!

As for the metallurgy of European swords may I commend to your attention "The Sword and the Crucible, A History of the Metallurgy of European Swords up to the 16th Century" Alan Williams---note: check out a copy at a University library; it's quite expensive and unless you enjoy looking at photomicrographs and can tell pearlite from ferrite in them it may be too dry and academic for the general reader. (It's the companion to his massive tome on the metallurgy of armour: "The Knight and the Blast Furnace" and both are some of the best MODERN research on the subjects!

Remember Identical blades would be a very odd thing indeed at those times!

[Bonnskij]

Thank you for the recommendations Thomas! I'll have to put the first book on my wishlist. That sounds like a great read.

I can get an electronic copy of The sword and the crucible from my university, so that will be my first read (thankfully I don't have to pay for that one. I could get seven copies of "Knives and scabbards" for the price...)

I probably can't tell perlite from ferrite, but I read dry academic articles (mostly about plankton) quite regularly, so I don't approach it unprepared.

Though my primary interest is European blades from around 1000 a.d, I am really interested in other time periods as well, and can't wait to take a deep dive into your book recommendations. It is greatly appreciated! 

And yes, I don't think I have seen two identical blades from the archaeological records.

As an aside I have found myself pondering the evolution of axe eyes way to much. From round to slightly oval makes sense, but there is a gradual thinning and lengthening of the eye throughout the centuries, and i'm not entirely sure why.

[JHCC]

The eyes of axes lengthened over time because that's the dimension in which the wood of the handle needs to resist breaking. A longer eye also means greater resistance to twisting.

[ThomasPowers]

Location plays a major part too.  I have to hand make handles for the axe heads I brought home from Germany and they are modern off the shelf ones too!

The Sword and the Crucible's bibliography/references may end up more useful for you.  I read it cover to cover just to be aware of modern research on the subject; so many people are still spouting "Victorian Wish Fulfillment" research and are not aware of modern research which contradicts many long held beliefs.

Have you read "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England"  getting a bit dated but an excellent example about researching something when there are not a lot of physical evidence.  (Note that John Anstee's seminal work on pattern welding, excerpted in an appendix, is now superseded.  We now know that making a bunch of small round pieces to be twisted and forge welded together is NOT needed to reproduce the patterns that have been found flat/sq stock works just as well and takes a lot less effort!)

[Bonnskij]

JHCC: Well now i fell silly. I spent so much time thinking about the blade geometry (where I saw no discernable improvement), that I forgot to think about the stregth aspect. I also assumed as soon as a fairly oval shape was made, the twisting was no longer an issue, but then again the lugs on old designs might contradict that.

Thomas: I'll have to take a look at modern axe eye designs and compare them I think. It would be interesting to know how much of a difference there is.

I am just about to start chapter three in "The sword and the crucible", so far it is is a very fascinating read, and I reckon the bibliography will come in very handy. Will absolutely read this book cover to cover.

Other than that I haven't really read any books about ancient metallurgy. That is certainly about to change though!

 

[ThomasPowers]

FRIEND!   Any interest in the historical smelting of iron in Sri Lanka? (They had a very interesting Monsoon wind powered bloomeries!)

Or for earlier European : "The Celtic Sword" by Radomir Pleiner

And of course anything Dr Feuerbach has written on crucible steel and Wootz (I have a copy of her Doctoral Thesis on "Crucible Steel in Central Asia")

[Bonnskij]

Thank you so much! That is absolutely wonderful! I am an utter history nerd, so I'll read anything on the subject that I can get my hands on.

I'll have to make myself a list and systematically start hunting down all these publications.
Gonna have to get myself a copy of the mastermyr find too I think.

Once again. Thanks heaps friend!

 

 

 

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

The mastermyr find is an easy one to get ahold of.  Can you share what your core interests and time periods and areas are?  I may have some suggestions that are more targeted---Like "The Opera of Bartolomeo Scappi"  has a lot of down hearth cooking items shown in it's original woodcuts; but is rather specific to Italy around 1570, (He was cook to 5 Popes and this is book on how he did things; recipes, cooking tools, etc.)  If you are focused on early medieval stuff Mastermyr is a better resource.  Of course then there is Oakeshott's "Archeology of Weapons" or  "Metallurgy in Archaeology :A Prehistory of Metallurgy in the British Isles"    Tylecote, R. F. 

[Bonnskij]

My core interests would be tools, knives and eating implements from Northern Europe. Centred around Scandinavia and England. In England I am mostly interested in the area around York as there has been many foreign occupants and a possible evolution of tools and foreign influence would be interesting to look at. From pre-roman to Roman (eorwik) through to Anglo Saxon (Northumbria) and viking occupation (Jorvik) and a little bit after.

Within tools I am particularly interested in ship and boat building tools.

The metallurgy and chemical composition of tools would be similarly interesting.

[ThomasPowers]

I'll try to get a picture of the hand forged T adze I picked up in Ohio at a fleamarket---pretty much matches one in "the prune people" viking books.

[Bonnskij]

Never heard of the prune people before. Another thing to look up. Interested in your adze for sure!
 

Bought some wrought iron from a Minnesota wagon wheel some time back. Decided to break off a piece today to confirm. I think I've been bamboozled. Anybody more knowledgeable than me care to chime in?

 

 

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

It's called the "prune People Viking book" as it has a title "The Viking" like twenty to thirty *other* books on the vikings; but a lot of the illustrations are drawings and all the people have faces with lines that look like they are prunes!

Good clear line drawings are MUCH easier to work from when trying to duplicate physical culture!

Aha "The Viking" Tre Tryckare + a bunch of other scholars!

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

On 5/10/2021 at 2:37 AM, Bonnskij said:

bamboozled

Maybe not bamboozled but it doesn't appear to have the fibrous texture of most wrought iron I have. However it could be triple refined (rolled) wrought which is close to mild steel in texture.

[ThomasPowers]

Triply refined was not common for wagon tyres; what does the spark test say---mild steel or wrought iron?  I have run into several mild steel wagon tyres; but the preponderance have been Wi and usually coarse WI.