What's the lifetime expectation of an anvil ?

[BartW]

Hello;

 

First of all; happy new year. This is my first post anywhere in 2019; and I wish you all best wishes for the new year.

 

Second; Today I was making wall hooks to hang stuff - I only had about an hour before we had to do the tour of every family member in the neighbourhood. Then I realized; I hit my anvil with a really way too hard hammer but I couldn't even change the scratch pattern. My hammer deformed and cracked.... Both my anvils are super hard high HRC 60'ies high carbon single block steel.

Then i asked myself a question I don't have an answer to. How long do anvils last ? I can imagine someone using something like the vulcan I used to have; that would have left a dent. If you were hammering on it every day; professionally; I can imagine something like a vulcan being swayed in a couple years; and probably not lasting 10 years in a professional forging workshop.

But I'm not a professional metal guy. I light my forge 3 to 4 times a week for a couple for hours each time. I make one or two knives a months if somebody wants one. Professionally I work in IT - Linux Unix-Cloudy-storage-licensing expert.

Still... how long do anvils last ? I cannot seem to do anything at all to my block of D2 (1.2379) hardened at HRC 66; and my skoda anvil basically has more rust issues than people using sledgehammers on it. I assume my kids (now 5 and 7 years old)  can still use them; but even older ? If they are eternal things; why do I see so many swayed and damaged anvils popping up on the local flea market ?

Suppose a 200 pound one piece tool steel anvil; hardened as hard as a file; one guy using sledgehammers on it all day for 20 years would leave the surface shiny and the foot rusted; and wear out a lot of sledgehammers; but the anvil doesn't really wear . so in this "golden age" of super steels; what's the life expectation of ahigh quality anvil ?

 

greetz; Bart

[Lionel h]

My mouse hole anvil was bought by my grandpa, went to my dad then to me . It was over a hundred years old before grandpa got it and I will most likely leave it to my grandson . It barely looks used but has much done on it.  With proper use it should last many lifetimes. 

[Timber Ridge Forge]

A couple factors go into the life of an anvil but the main ones are proper usage if someone has no clue what they are doing uses it. It might not last a life time. The next is quality a poorly made cast iron anvil might not last as long as a high quality cast steel. Other factors include size and environment. The fact is a quality anvil used right and taken care of should last multiple life times. 

[Frosty]

Eventually they'll rust to dust unless you bury it in oil, tar etc. Maybe sink one in the La Brea tar pits. Your D2 home brews should outlast your great great grand kids. I have a 125 lb. Soderfors, Swedish cast steel anvil born in 1923 I purchased from a man who made a living as a farrier who bought it from a man who made a living on it for (if he's to be believed) 50 years. A file skates across it's face without doing ore than cleaning it of dust 'n' grime and it'll blunt a cold chisel. The only marks on it are a couple chips out of the edges.

Long enough striking the anvil itself with sledge hammers might chip enough away to kill one. That or a monkey boy using it as a cutting table, that's known to kill anvils. 

Uh Timber Ridge? A POORLY made cast iron MIGHT not last as long as a HIGH quality cast steel anvil? As what, a salt water boat anchor? A well made cast steel anvil will outlast most any other kind of anvil if used as an anvil. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Timber Ridge Forge]

I dumbed it down! Too much? 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Seems the anvils found in the Mastermyr Chest of the viking age are still usable after a couple thousand years.

[BartW]

I also got a czech cast steel one born  in the 1930'ies; 200 pounds. ( skoda anvil )One day someone was making damascus on it; and he couldn't "brush" the black stuff off that built up on the face. He decided to grab a wood chisel and scrape it off. When I saw that; I wasn't too happy; but upon inspecting the anvil; I told him he had to resharpen the chisel. There is literally not even a scratch on it. I do love the anvil; And I keep it clean and apply oil to it's face several times a week. 
So I'm inclined to agree with Frosty; however; that begs the question; given our current steel "standard" why aren't all anvils made in solid hi quality steel; and if used correctly for like light use (like I do); it should last basically forever? 

Then ... who's making the crap anvils? And why ? There are a LOT of crap anvils floating around.

[Kozzy]

9 minutes ago, BartW said:

 that begs the question; given our current steel "standard" why aren't all anvils made in solid hi quality steel; and if used correctly for like light use (like I do); it should last basically forever? 

There's your economics glitch.  My anvil was cast as a lot of 12 (iirc) in a proprietary stainless steel material which the foundry usually makes hammer mill hammers from--tough and hard as the dickens (and virtually no rusting).  They not only get more like $ 20 per pound for those hammer mill parts, but get repeat orders.  That'd technically make my 260 pounder retail at over $ 5000 bucks.  Where is there a market for someone paying $5k USD for anvils?

Additionally, the anvil market really is tiny.  It might seem like a big market but in the scheme of things, it's a cottage industry--maybe 300K-500K  total units of quality anvils worldwide  in a year spread out among all the companies--and with a customer base that's...well...cheapskates.

If you have the facilities to make quality anvils, you could probably be making a whole lot more profit on something else, leaving only those who prefer to keep making them as a niche product.  The only way to make money (ignoring the niche market above)  in new anvils is as a bottom feeder, similar to the chinese anvil makers.

As to life...anvil use is so variable that I don't think there is an answer.  For the average user, I'd think effectively forever.  For repetitive commercial work (more old school), it'd be a wear item and likely replaced every few years--which might be where a lot of the swaybacks actually came from.  There was little scrap market in those days so Joe the "factory smith"'s helper could probably just walk off with a worn anvil for the cost of asking.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Then we had the steel drive's during WWII when so many good anvils were turned in to be melted down for the war effort.

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, Timber Ridge Forge said:

I dumbed it down! Too much? 

Nope, you got it wrong. Cast iron is about bottom of the shelf for anvils. Not counting a steel faced cast iron body anvil like Fisher. Next up are the wrought body steel faced anvils. Cast steel anvils run a wide gamut from the Russian ones offered by Harbor fright which were pretty decent but not top shelf. The top shelf cast steel anvils are about as good as it gets. Even the Russian cheapo anvils beat cast iron any way you look at as a working tool.

Don't sweat it most of what's going around on the internet regarding blacksmithing and associated things is largely based on urban myth, often novels and video games. It takes a while to learn to sift the grain from the chaff.

One of the things I like about being here is how quickly I'm corrected when I say something wrong. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Daswulf]

"What's the lifetime expectation of an anvil ?" 

longer than my lifetime expectation. Lol, And they are more hard headed, and sometimes brighter.... go figure. 

[Timber Ridge Forge]

Unfortunately I didn’t ego’s can prove to be the Internet blacksmith down fall dude you seem to have a problem I don’t understand. I said it “might” a poor quality cast iron anvil can still last a life time and high quality anvil can have casting flaws so maybe take it down a notch there frosty. I never said it was the case 100% of the time 

[Glenn]

Like many tools, if you buy invest in a well made tool, and then take care of that tool, it will last a long while.

As with anything, if you buy a bottom of the line cheap tools and you get one jobs use from them, you got your moneys worth. You want to do a little research, select the right tool for the jobs you are doing, and then invest in a top of the line tool, that tool, when taken care of, will last many years. It will pay for itself many times over. 

The life expectancy of the tool depends on the caretaker of the tool. Anvils are no exception.

[ThomasPowers]

Please note that scale is an abrasive and will *slowly* remove face from anvils.  Also over at another site they had a picture of anvils where an anvil's face had cracking after a lot of hard use.  Not on the edges but in the center of the face.

The bridge anvils used in the early oil fields for reforging the cable tool drill bits were definitely considered a consumable and many are still around with massive face damage after relatively short uses. (When the cost of downtime exceeds the cost of replacing an anvil bought new by several times you tend to get abused anvils---sledge hammers swung full speed!)

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I have one old cast iron anvil, and the face is pretty beaten up - very soft. Any hammering with steel on it dents it up. These would last a lifetime though in a shop that worked with items softer than the cast iron it is made of. 

All of my other anvils have hardened tops. My Peter Wright seems to be softer as the top has a divot near the horn, the Vulcan has a series of dings from being used in a high school shop class, and my small Hay Budden has a gobbed up face. The Fisher, big Hay Budden, JHM, and Soderfors have nice faces and the Fisher is my oldest at 1907, and the JHM is the newest.

There was an identical Hay Budden where I got mine and the top had BIG smooshes on the edges where a sledge hammer nailed the edge. Each one was the size of the hammer face. Misused like that they won't last long. Now with anvil collectors , the only wear they will get is when they are polished up, so depending on how long they sit unused.....

I think someone could do a great  business in offering a good steel anvil with the interest there is today in smithing. But that would require lower prices than the competition, and higher volume sales. As mentioned before, the market is saturated with newbie smiths with a lower budget for anvils. Many shops today though want higher profits per item to make it worth their time as they have other ventures that pay more than anvils do.