toadboy65 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 So here is my first attempt at making damascus. I used lots of little rods of spring steel, with 1080 powder to fill the voids. I coated the inside of the canister with thinned wood glue mixed with titanium dioxide, which separated well. Probably not a big deal for most here, but a landmark for me. The next stage seems to be forging this into some sort of knife shape, which should prove a challenge. My assistant (shown in the image) approves of the progress so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 Great helper! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMaakus Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 That is very cool, congrats! Did you work the billet by hand? Also, maybe you can answer me this question: Making damascus seems to be a flux intensive endeavour. I can't have borax, so I already asked myself, if canister damascus could solve my problem. So, did you need borax at any point of making the billet? I also like your anvil! And your little helper, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Borax is a help not a necessity. Can you tell us why you can't have borax? Over here it's commonly used as a laundry additive, especially for washing baby diapers. And sold by the box in the laundry section of the store, cheaply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMaakus Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Hello ThomasPowers, I live in Germany. Borax has been banned here a few years ago, it seems. It's now classified as poisonous or something. You can only buy it now if you have a business AND you have to bring evidence, that you really need that stuff. It's a bunch of bull, if you ask me. But, here I am, not able to buy borax like the rest of the world. On the other hand, I'm a beginner and can't even get a nail right. So, forge welding (and especially making Damascus) is far off, anyways, for now. Maybe I find another way till then. Also, I don't even know how much borax a person needs. Maybe I could get my hands on, like, 500gr. But I don't even know if it's worth the hassle for that amount, if I need the whole batch for one connection between two bars or something. Anyways, it's a little discouraging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 500grams (1.102lbs.) Should last you a while, depending on how much forge welding you plan to do. If its just some here and there it will last a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NelsonR Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Seems that borax has been banned throughout the EU. Although Borax is often the flux of choice due to its low cost and the ability to apply it to metal while hot, it is far from the only flux that can be used to pattern weld. As Thomas mentioned, flux is not even necessary at all to forge weld, although it does make things much easier. Throughout history many different fluxes have been used from sand to clay slurries, only in the past couple centuries being replaced with borax. The most common alternative methods still in use today generally involve hydrocarbons, such as kerosene or WD-40. It is important to note that the are applied to the metal BEFORE firing, as opposed to borax that can be applied while hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Here is a video of TechnicusJoe (a member here) trying a german made forge welding flux product. So probably available in Germany. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Clean quartz sand or ground glass were used extensively with real wrought iron which is often quite self fluxing due to the metal silicates contained. The also take high heats well where such fluxes will melt. Charcoal ash also has been used---again it works best at high heats. IIRC there was a discussion of moving to borax fluxes with the change from real wrought iron to Bessemer/Kelly process (and subsequent processes) steel in Practical Blacksmithing, Richardson, published in 1889,1890,1891. Borax was known as a flux earlier for jewelry work with it's high temp solders. High temps where the scale melts helps when not using a flux as does strict control of the atmosphere to make sure it's reducing. I would contact other Smiths in Germany to see what they are using as flux since the ban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMaakus Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Thank you guys! That is some good information and I will look into it. I didn't want to hijack toadboy65 's thread, sorry for that. Just a last remark - Daswulf : Exactly that shop is a good example. They sell borax, but they might want to see your business license. As I said, mainly private persons, like I am, are forbidden to buy it anymore. But thanks guys! I will see if I can get some, seeing that a small amount might go a long way, and / or find some alternatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 I saw a mention of folks in Germany buying it on ebay.uk and having it sent to Germany; but I don't know if that's still possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Let me get this straight. In Europe, you need a business license to carry out chemistry reactions and experiments? Curiouser and curiouser. SLAG. In general, boron compounds can be toxic, and requires some knowledge for safe use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toadboy65 Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 I used a mild steel canister 5cm x 5cm x 10cm or so. Filled it almost completely with the spring steel rods, then added 1080 powder bit by bit, shaking it to settle and fill the voids. I attached a steel rod for a handle, drilled 3mm hole, then immersed the whole thing in used motor oil overnight. Once it had soaked in the forge long enough, I started hammering. I do not have a power hammer, but I do have a shop press. The press is of limited use, because it is too slow to be much help. I did press the billet a couple of times in the early stages, but have mostly hammered by hand since I took the canister off. I used borax after removing the canister, but that was probably unnecessary. As of today, it is about 25cm x 4cm x .5cm. It does not seem to have any voids or delamination, and I can no longer see the "grain" of the original materials. But the amount of hand hammering I have done on this is just crazy. Also, I am sort of winging it as far as technique. I may be missing steps or shortcuts, or doing unnecessary work. I am working solo, and do not have a mentor on this. I tend to set absurd goals for myself, then pursue them with fanatical determination until I succeed. My first real blacksmithing project was when I was in college, and spent a couple of years making a percussion rifle using Foxfire #5, with a small coal forge on the balcony of my dorm. (The fire department eventually got used to me). Here is that rifle, if anyone is interested: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMaakus Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Thank you toadboy for the explanation! And for using metric. That rifle looks pretty nice! I actually have the fever dream of one day making such a rifle by myself. Unfortunatly, I would have to get a gun license which is expensive and usually hard to come by here. You had a coal forge on your balcony?! I'm not even allowed to set up an electric grill on mine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BartW Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Nice piece of cannister damascus. I live in belgium; and I bought my borax on the German Amazon.de ... but I can't anymore. When did this regulation changed ? Also; what harmfull thing besides annoying people can you do with borax ? I'm not worried yet; as I have a LOT of kilo's left, and I never use much at all because it eats my gasforge's floor. As Borax is used as flux in making jewelry; by horseshoe makers; by glas-blowers.. you should be able to find some. Also; if you have welding sticks; can't you just beat that powder off ? Give it's purpose; it should have some flux-like capabilities no ? Hmmm gotta try that at home; it may even work better than borax without destroying my forge ... mvg; Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMaakus Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 I think it's regulated in the EU since 2009. It seems like people used Borax as nutritional supplement, like magnesium and stuff. And it looks like animal test showed, it can be dangerous in larger quantities. I'm pretty sure, salt can be dangerous too, if you eat 5kg of it. Yet it isn't banned. I have no idea what this is about. Maybe they still sell it in pharmacys... If you come around to test the welding sticks theory, let us know how it went! That is a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 The EU banned borax because lab studies showed possible detrimental impacts on reproductive health (i.e., decreased fertility and increased risk of birth defects). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BartW Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 I agree with that; where there's blacksmiths and borax, fertility is decreased. But I think the factor inbetween is the heavy iron/steel things like leg vise handles hitting you between the legs mvg; Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 I'm now beginning to understand some of the reasoning behind the Brixet vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Careful, now. Remember, no politics on IFI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Actually having used Boraxo hand soap; I would think the presence of Borax would *increase* the fertility of blacksmiths....(Learning various ways to clean your hands is a basic beginner's task of the "dirty crafts".) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toadboy65 Posted December 23, 2018 Author Share Posted December 23, 2018 Here is the lump as of today: I am still working on basic geometry. It turns out to be not as thick as I had liked after removing hammer marks. The ones closer to the edge should be gone once I finish working that part of the knife. Or so I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMaakus Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 The shape looks very nice! Keep us informed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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