muting concussion of anvil in concrete shop

[redfoxx]

ok,  i apologize if i put this in the wrong place, ive searched the forums and used the search bar with just about every keyword on the subject and didnt find much.

so before i get into this you need to know the history of my nutty next door neighbor. if you want to skip over that look for the *** on the thread

so my workshop is a detached garage, my neighbors driveway and mine are butted against each other. since ive moved in here the guy and his crazy lady friend have been driving me nuts. thankfully after years of reluctantly having to call the cops over them doing xxxx like setting off the cars panic button at 2 am they for the most part ignore me. they pretend i don't exist.  and over the years ive literally tried offering them the olive branch. and a few weeks later they take that olive branch and smack me in the head with it.  i even contributed over 200 dollars to trim his tree which overhangs both our drives and made room for the tree guys truck. over a period of 3 years i have tried to negotiate, bribe, talk nice to, work things out. never raised my voice, never shouted an insult. his girl called my wife a xxxxx xxxxx and accused me of growing pot in my garage.... she even accused me at one point of threatening her with a gun through my window... really insane xxxx. thankfully the cops know her which means they know they are a problem. i get along very well with everyone else in the area and we help each other out. i think i live next to the black sheep of the neighborhood. which might come in handy if the dude tries legal action. 

my area the houses are pretty close, but i live in a loud town, lots of idiots on motorbikes revving, guys in mustangs peeling out on the main road a half mile away, the guy across the street overuses his leaf blower.  the other neighbors always yell.  so there are days where its quiet, and days where the city is full of life.  i often hear train horns in the distance as well. so its not like im in some super quiet area.

however after having my apprentice help me pound out a cutting hardy for myself and trying to hammer my side door straight we made a ton of noise. so dingus next door asked me to shut down at 3 pm on a Sunday. claiming ive been doing it non stop for weeks (i actually did so 2 weeks ago Saturday, and last Sunday)  i really try to avoid confrontation and don't like to draw attention to myself.  the man has a look on his face that he has some deep seated hatred for me and wants to rage but seems too intimidated to follow through. so its hard for me to approach him because i cant tell if he wants to kick my xxx or ask a question.


******** the meat of the issue.  my power tools are fairly quiet, my doors are thick,  i have a vulcan anvil and the stump it rests on has a foam mat under it.  it doesn't bang much, but it being on a concrete floor creates a lot of a concussive force. almost like some dude driving by with loud bass.

i also plan on buying a higher quality new anvil in the future. would a heavier anvil absorb said shock more? ringing isnt really an issue.

i saw that sand boxes for these things helps mitigate ring, but im wondering if theres any way to make the ground thudding more quiet?  i know im probably trying too hard to appease an irrational person, but i dont like making waves.

and no, not everyone can afford a country farm in the boondocks. i plan to find a more rural area to live in some day, but i always believe build the home you want to live in, and not live in one like youre renting it. and after fixing up this house. and all the trouble i went through making the shop. i wont be uprooting and remodeling a worn down shack of a house in the boonies anytime soon. believe me ive looked.

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Mod44

[Marc1]

A sand box stand should make things way better. A larger anvil will also absorb much of the hammer energy. 

I had a couple of crazy tenants next door for a few years but they are gone now. Not much you can do really. Probably associated with alcohol or worse. 

Having said that, I wouldn't forge on a Sunday afternoon.

[redfoxx]

probably is alcohol.  will playsand at a big box store like lowes work?

 

[Glenn]

Figure out if the concrete floor is acting as a sounding board.

There are two ideas that come to mind. One is build a box for sand (play sand will work) to surround the anvil. About 3 inches deep will do. This will absorb the vibrations from the anvil and soften or kill the ring.

The second issue would be isolating the anvil stump from the floor. A rubber horse stall may may work, or a box with sand may work. Look into the isolation solutions for power hammers. Not the pit to isolate the hammer from the foundation, but to isolate the vibrations of the impact.

You may need to get creative.

 

[Marc1]

if you build a steel box in the shape of a truncated pyramid with a slight taper so it is not in the way. Fill it one inch short of the edge with river sand and mount the anvil on a steel plate and let the steel plate and anvil float on the sand. Almost no sound nor vibration will be able to go down to the concrete. If you want to go the extra mile you could find a square piece of cork one inch thick and glue it to the base of the box. 

[Al Stephens]

Building your box high enough so the anvil feet can be covered with sand/scale also helps to quiet it down. Al 

[MC Hammer]

I used to live in the city 17 years ago and hated it for the same reasons.  I'd walk out my back door and the neighbor would ask me what I was up too.  I had a neighbor who'd come on my side of the fence and door yard work like trimming trees (down to nubs!) and weeding around bushes.  I'm friendly, but not that friendly.  We decided then and there that we wanted to live out in the sticks and that's what we did.

The point made on the size of the anvil is true.  When I had my little 75 pound anvil my wife would hear "thump-thump-thump" inside the house and I was on the gravel driveway.  With my 179 pound anvil mounted to a stump she hears no thumping at all.  

[JHCC]

There are two kinds of sand out there: alluvial (river or beach) and angular (talus or mechanically crushed). See this thread for a full discussion:

If you're building a sandbox anvil stand, you want the angular kind. If you're adding a box around the feet of the anvil to deaden the sound, you can probably use either.

Adding some sound-absorbing material under the stand would probably help somewhat, but a stall mat might be a bit too bouncy. Try a couple of thicknesses of inner tube rubber; shops that replace the tires on big trucks often have damaged ones they'd otherwise throw away.

If you don't go with a sandbox stand, a layer of silicone caulk between the anvil and the stand will secure the anvil nicely and deaden the noise.

[JustAnotherViking]

In addition to the above, have you considered general acoustic management? 

Hang some heavy blankets a few inches off the walls to absorb some of the sound and stop it reverberating around further

[JHCC]

Acoustic tile on the ceiling might help, too. Just make sure you get the fire-rated kind.

[ThomasPowers]

Tangential to this:  Get a high grade notebook and DOCUMENT every negative interaction!  Date every entry, who was involved, who may have witnessed it, etc.  *When* it comes to court you want to have the paper trail explicit on *their* actions! (and always stay within the noise ordinances; have another log where you list your work is a good idea too).

Are they renting or do they own their house?

(I had someone that called the fire department on me multiple times when I lived in the city; fortunately every time I had been using my smoker---which is an allowed use under the city ordinances. After about the 4th time the Fire department wedged their huge firetruck in the narrow alley behind my house only to find me smoking dinner, the harassment stopped and I was told, sub rosa, that the person was informed that next time they called in a false alarm there would be an US$1100 fine...)

 

[redfoxx]

10 hours ago, JustAnotherViking said:

In addition to the above, have you considered general acoustic management? 

Hang some heavy blankets a few inches off the walls to absorb some of the sound and stop it reverberating around further

well to get an understanding, the side door of my shop is made out of 2x6 planks, the shop doors are 3/4 inch plywood, reinforced, the door jamb is made by glued and screwed 2x8s. i designed it so all surfaces have an overlap to keep drafts and wind out. it also keeps noise out.  those hinges alone are rated for 300lbs a piece. to give you a hint on how much i like overkill. and there are 6 of em total lol.

the guy who works on cars in the garage behind my home is louder than me. and he doesnt use air tools or anything like that.  insulating the roof would be tough, considering its a hip roof. once the coal stove is installed i might put fiberglass up to help keep warmth in. 

its really the ground "thump thump thump" that triggers this jerk.   some blame does go to my apprentice, a kid full of xxxx and vinegar, he likes big hammers and to hit it hard. i prefer medium hammers and more precise blows.

 

10 hours ago, JHCC said:

Acoustic tile on the ceiling might help, too. Just make sure you get the fire-rated kind.

i live in the same state the station night club disaster happened. doubt that will ever fly if a fire martial gets wind of me.

the kid did come in handy when making a cutoff hardy and hammering nails into my door. though thats the loudest ive been since moving in here. so that might have something to do with it.

 

8 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Tangential to this:  Get a high grade notebook and DOCUMENT every negative interaction!  Date every entry, who was involved, who may have witnessed it, etc. 

i have security cameras around the house. the one in the garage faces the drive on my side.  typically he never crosses the line to confront me.  many times writing things down might help, but it wont hold up as evidence if things get legal.

im pretty sure they own the home. or at least he does. im not sure if the old hag still lives there, my wife says she sees her on ocassion. we never see her venture outside except to drive somewhere. i at least see him work on the yard.  there was a time i wonder if she died or something.  she is so nutty she scotch taped a usb cable and put her cordless phone charger in her front window because she was having issues with the guy across the st from me.  claiming shes recording him....   i mean, a dummy cam is like 10 bucks and is more convincing than taping junk to your window dont you think guys?

the guy across the st is a sweetheart. i first met him in january, sub zero temps, my computer in my car died, he came over with tools to try to help me.  though he avoids coming over my place because he doesnt want to deal with xxxxxxx next door.  he looks exactly like "casper" from the movie "me, myself and irene" 

 

11 hours ago, MC Hammer said:

The point made on the size of the anvil is true. 

i have a 75 lb vulcan. no ring. but shes a thumper.  it seems to me when i finally get enough cash ill buy a new steel anvil thats larger like 100 lbs, and deaden the ring. i suspect rebound will be better so i wont have to whack it as hard. seeing the prices of texas farriers anvils im really excited.

as far as the comment on boxy angular stands. i made one for my fisher i have as a spare. the rebound is absolutely awful. i probably wont build something like that again.

where do i purchase said sand?

thank you all for your replies!

[JHCC]

12 hours ago, redfoxx said:

where do i purchase said sand?

Masonry supply places are a good option. An even better one is to find a mason or contractor who has some left over from a job that they need to get rid of. My neighbor down the street is doing a construction project and overordered sand to the tune of two and a half tons. 

[MC Hammer]

Get the heaviest anvil you can afford.  I'm not sure a 100# anvil will cure your thumping as it's only 25 more pounds.  150 #er is a good size.  My anvil situation went from a 75 # anvil to a 179 # anvil, so that was 100 pound addition.  I also have a larger stump pictured below.

Here's another picture that shows the old outline of the smaller anvil routered out on the top of the stump with the new anvil over it - see why the thump went away?  Big difference in size!

 

[SLAG]

I have seen sand for sale in most of the big box hardware stores.

Some examples are Lowes,  Home Hardware,  Menards,  Ace Hardware etc. etc.

Some of the smaller stores also have. Ask the staff as some shops keep it out back.

I buy it in fifty pound bags, so it's cheap.  It come in other sizes. Also, the sand is sold in many different sizes.

SLAG.

[ThomasPowers]

Save for when I do masonry work I source my sand in the local arroyo;  What is this "buy" you mention!

Got a local beach you won't get in trouble for grabbing a buck of sand from?  (please wash it to remove the salt!)

[Frosty]

The local company that fills concrete trucks keeps a mountain (read pile of a few hundred to thousand tons) on hand. Some will just give you sand after looking at you funny, some won't for safety issues. However any real building supply carries sand. I'm not talking a Home Depot or the equivalent though they usually do as well. Aluvial or "natural" river sand is rounded and will shift no matter how hard you pack it. Adding up to approx 8% fines will solve that if it's a problem Fines are soils that will pass a 200 screen, clay is good. Crushed sand is angular the particles "key" meaning they fit together like pieces of a jig saw puzzle and won't shift. It's good to wash crushed sand to remove the dust so you don't have to breath it, add a little clay and crushed sand will compact like concrete.

Another benefit of a sand stand is the container, the construction becomes much easier all it needs do is contain the sand. A simple wooden box, plywood, corner brackets and wood screws is it. You can use a cut down 15 gl. grease barrel though you might need to bend it a little to get the anvil's foot to fit.

I use a steel tripod stand under my anvils but my situation is different a little noise doesn't bother us at home or demos. I just had to cut the dangerously LOUD ringing from my Soderfors and Trenton anvils and steel stands serves nicely. They aren't silent, definitely more than a thump. They just don't damage your ears now.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Arroyo sand comes pre-clayed....of course the local "soil" is rated for direct concrete pour too; basically "subsoil to the surface".

[Frosty]

You could probably just sit the anvil on the ground, carve (jack hammer)  the ground away around it and use the remaining lump of hard pan for the stand. You could call it the, "Almost Waste Deep Blacksmith Shop." Hmmm?

Frosty The Lucky.

[redfoxx]

21 hours ago, MC Hammer said:

Get the heaviest anvil you can afford.  I'm not sure a 100# anvil will cure your thumping as it's only 25 more pounds.  150 #er is a good size. 

thats a nice setup. i dont think i could afford anything larger than a 150 lb anvil. texas farrier has some decent priced ones. i think ill buy one there

[Glenn]

A farriers anvil is designed for a specific type job, related to horses. A blacksmiths anvil is designed for many different applications. Think of the application you need and choose the anvil you want for that type job. 

There has been a lot of things made on 100 to 150 pound anvils. 

Think of the anvil as a life time investment. It may be a bit expensive at first, but the price drops each time you use the anvil when you average out the price per hour of use.  For instance, $2000 should get you most of the NEW anvils available, until you get into the heavy anvils. If you use that anvil for a year (2000 hours) then the anvil cost is only $1.00 per hour. Think of it as a rent to own project. (grin)

[MC Hammer]

Glen makes some good points.

It sounds like money is an issue.  What I did is came up with a budget for an anvil.  If you have an absolute number as to how high you can go it will narrow things down.  If you can afford a new anvil, that's the way to go but most can't.  I think when you have a limited budget that you can buy more anvil for your money buying an old anvil.  The one I pictured above cost me $300 but the equivalent pound anvil new would cost from $875 - $1,400.  If I spent my $300 on a new anvil I'd have only been able to afford a 44# - 70# anvil on Centaur Forge.  Sure, my anvil has some chipping on the edges and other cosmetic issues but it moves metal just fine.  It's also a risk that my anvil could develop a problem like a cracked face plate or something, but still I'm only out $300.  Yes your new anvil will last forever most likely if you have the money to go that route.  It is a lifetime investment.

[redfoxx]

im sorry, but im simply not going to dump 2k on a piece of iron for a hobby. thats almost two mortgage payments.

id be willing to spend up to just shy of a grand. 750-800 is reasonable for a new anvil in my opinion. however i noticed that new anvils when they go above 150 lbs the price literally doubles. regardless of shipping and transport policy.

that stove pipe for my forge chimney alone cost me 1300 dollars in materials. the stove pipe for my coal stove will cost minimum 800. between this, fixing up the home i live in, paying a mortgage and other bills and expenses its not a matter of saving up. until i get some things paid off and even then it would take me over 6 years to buy an "investment" priced anvil by my current calculations. it is simply beyond my means.

i wouldnt have a problem buying an old anvil, except there just isnt any left.  anytime i run into a customer who has one, even as a lawn ornament will not part with it. the antique market has artificially inflated their price. 

 

[MC Hammer]

Redfoxx it's not really the antique market but the recent surge in interest from Forged In Fire watchers (show on the History Channel).  So many people see the show and want to make blades.  They are willing to pay the higher prices because of lack of knowledge usually of what a good anvil is and what a good price for an anvil is.  Sure, there's collectors and antiquers who buy them for decoration but I think the new hobby people from watching FIF are by far the biggest group.  I could be wrong, and if I am, the good folks here will chime in.  All forging tools have gone up.

I see you have the two Harbor Freight belt sanders there on your bench.  How do they work for grinding metal?

My advice is still to by an old anvil.  For the money you have, you could even overpay for one on Craigs List or Ebay (though I'd always want to see an anvil in person before buying) and come away with a decent anvil.  Have you tried Thomas Powers method of searching for anvils?  TPAAAT It works.  There's a whole thread on it here.  I found my anvil from a friend's, friend's nephew.  All because I told the guy I was looking to buy an anvil so he said he knew a blacksmith so I called the blacksmith who said his nephew has a bunch of anvils and forging tools.  If you ask enough, those anvils do start coming out of the woodwork.  Perhaps with the people you see with anvils as decorations on their lawn you could just approach them and really admire their anvil then just throw out a number like $500.  Maybe they bought it for $50 and the money will be more of an enticement than just simply asking them if they'd be willing to sell it.   The old saying of everyone has their price is mostly true.  I made a huge stone axe (actually called a celt) that I dubbed as the world's largest.  It's not for sale, but if someone came along with $1,000.00 it would be gone  

[JHCC]

And then your celt would be solt.