ThomasPowers Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Please do not complain of money issues whilst telling us how MUCH you have spent! The stove pipe for my chimney cost me US$10 for 10' of 10" spiral ductwork, (Re-Store, Albuquerque). It goes out the metal side of my shop that the propanel cost me $0---for the entire 20'x30' shop including the roof! Hail damaged and Overruns from repair of hail damaged roofs) (I did buy new SDST screws to assemble it and paid $300 for used trusses, the uprights were utility poles that were free from the electrical Coop) You can get a block of scrap steel that will be very close to what anvils have been for around 3000 years; I pay 20 cents a pound at my scrapyard so a 200# anvil will be $40. Yes you can demand to have stuff top of the line and brand new; but please don't complain about it as it is a personal choice to go that way. I'm running my smithing on a $25 a week "allowance" and that covers all my vices (and vises). Lately most of it has gone to the used bookstore the Public Library association runs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 No one said the anvil had to be new. The term NEW anvil was used as that is the desire people have. A new anvil will not make a better product than a used anvil can make. It is the blacksmith's knowledge, skill, and expertise that is the limiting factor. If you invest $500 in an anvil and apply the rent-to-own program, you can have it paid for in 3 months. A $300 anvil can be paid for in 7.5 weeks, etc. I have seen anvils at hammer ins and other blacksmith gatherings for below $200 or just over 5 weeks. As Thomas said, you can get a block of scrap steel that will be very close to what anvils have been for around 3000 years; He pays 20 cents a pound at his scrapyard so a 200# anvil will be $40. The point is to relate cost to a known and tangible factor, rent. Reference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfoxx Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share Posted June 7, 2018 8 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Please do not complain of money issues whilst telling us how MUCH you have spent! to buy my house i had to acquire credit. to acquire credit you need debt. how do you think i paid for it? lol my garage is in view of the street. if i did a hackjob using single wall pipe the fire marshall or my home owners insurance would have a field day. i used double walled stainless for best drafting and long life. and it was the safest way to do it. the chimney drafts so well i never need to heat it up being a side draft and all. i cut up a beer box and the darn thing nearly sucked it up the flue! im all for buy it once, cry once and never worry about it again. but spending a grand on a big anvil is beyond my means. its not about me being poor, its about not being able to absorb the up front cost. once the debt is settled ill be able to have a bit more freedom. but you guys must understand, within the past year we got married, had a honeymoon, paid cash for both, i bought the house. and its an older one. im trying to get the darn thing painted, the dormer repaired, and i have to insulate. oh and to top it off my pc has been limping along on life support for a year. LOL not trying to garner sympathy. its just all these projects and obligations are pulling me in ten directions at once. i dont make alot of money, but i am very wise in how i spend it. heck im not even in the middle class. its not me being impatient either. all my life i never had a shop with a roof, never lived in a house that was "finished" or "working properly" i want to life in a home thats warm, without bandaid fixes from botched handyman repairs, and i want a shop thats in working order that i can be proud of. and one that will give my mean neighbor as little to complain about within sane reasoning. to my other friends yes i check craigslist almost every week. it was sheer luck that i found my vulcan 15 years ago. the post vice and coal stove was from a guy who wanted to blacksmith but had to move out of the state and was getting to old for such a hobby. so far, nada. perhaps the forge in fire series increased its popularity, but even before then it was slim pickings for me. i would gladly pay a rent to own agreement with a good size anvil. if theres anywhere to point me to that would be awesome! i am also not aware of any blacksmith meets of any sort in the north east. so a 150lb will still be a thumper guys? thank you all for your input. i guess ill try the sandox method for thumper till i can find a big boi to beat metal on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfoxx Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 hey, found one in my area. just to make me a liar HAHA anyone know this one? it looks like it has the name "tok" Link removed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Redfoxx, You can start the rent-to-own payment with your current anvil, and or vise. It starts the habit and puts a bit of money aside for when you find a better anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Well in general I find that blacksmithing tools sold on the web are some of the most expensive ones compared to beating the bushes and networking face to face. (the one shown looks like a cast iron ASO for instance.) Hard to find the ones people are NOT trying to make money off of selling them on the net. You just missed the New England Blacksmith's Spring conference which was last weekend; but the fall one gives you plenty of time to prepare. (Sept 7-9) (Hey I'm in New Mexico and it took me 30 seconds to find a conference in New England...that's what the net is good for!) I owned a 100+ year old house, zero insulation, in Columbus Ohio and got a second degree, worked 50 to 60 hour weeks and had a young family---simultaneously. I know what tough can be. As the sole breadwinner for most of my going on 34 years of marriage we've always had to live to a budget. Doing so means that our current house is paid off, 30 year note paid off in 18 years. We learned to cut our coat to suit our cloth; a lot of it depends on choosing what to spend our money on---like the trip to Wales a couple of years ago and the 1500 mile (each way) trip to Quad-State this fall. My marriage and honeymoon cost about US$500, $1198.78 in today's money (Bureau of Labor Statistics CPI inflation calculator) Seems to have worked just fine. Did that $1300 include the second chimney for the coal stove as it requires a separate flue? (And runs MUCH hotter than a forge flue does---my woodstove heats the single wall flue in the house to 400 deg F for about 4' up but I can put my hand on my forge flue that far above the forge.) Getting an improvised anvil that resembles one that the Japanese katanas or norse swords were forged on is NOT SETTLING FOR LESS! Most of the world does excellent blacksmithing on anvils that are not london pattern anvils. If you feel you must spend lots of money for an anvil to make it *real* get a NIMBA; much more useful shape than the London pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfoxx Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 i found another seller with a brimingham/ isaac hill 166 lb and sent him a message. yea its my assumption most of the forge flue is just to vent gases. mine doesnt get more than 100 degrees. but, because its insulated, no worries about fire in the roof and no problem drafting in cold windy temps. no. the coal stove will be around 800. its alot taller and i have a flue reclaimer my fam pitched together to buy me for xmas. im also going to cheap out an go for galvanized for the stove since it will be run only in winter time when im in the shop. its not hooked up yet. im really hoping the stove wont need a door gasket. though looking at it i dont think it was designed for one. the reason the forge chimney was so expensive is its a larger diam, its all stainless, needed roof brackets and the cap was pricey. but worth it. it would have cost me 3-4k to have it installed by a chimney company. i couldnt believe what they charge. yes i know not all anvils have horns. however i forge tent stakes, hooks, and arrowheads the most, so the step and horn are very important for my needs. i will have to check the event out. i normally just putter along to myself. i guess im so used into being into things so archaic nobody knows/cares about my interest i just figured nobody near me would really be into it. though the nearest meet is 2 hrs minimum so who knows. maybe i should just start my own chapter lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 The internet was made so the rest of us weirdos can link up without dressing up as fantasy characters and attending Cons. Oh, wait, I have worn a kilt and gone to Highland Games for forty years. Hello, kettle? This is pot calling. I know that you live in tiny little RI, but two hours is nothing to attend a "local" event. Even on the relatively densely populated East Coast of the US, one tank of gas each way and no hotel IS a local day trip. For a multi-day event, the tailgating and quality of the demos make it worthwhile to camp or find something cheap, like a Motel 6, or End of Days Inn. I paid for the the upcoming ABANA conference and reserved a hotel in December. Unless life throws a spanner in the gears again, I plan of getting back to Quad State in Ohio this September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 10 hours ago, Glenn said: Redfoxx, You can start the rent-to-own payment with your current anvil, and or vise. i have done something on that line for 5 years now. This is what I do, I never pay anything with change, always with paper bills ( well, plastic bills really) and pocket the change. At the end of the day I put the change in a really big tin. The tin has a date on it so that I know how long it took to fill, and a purpose, that is what I am saving for. Usually it takes me about a year. At the end of the year I open the tin with a can opener, pour the change in a big bag and with some effort ( about 20 kilos) take it to the bank and put it in the counting machine. it's a lot of fun and every year I find it hard to believe how much I get out of this tin. Last year it was $1700. Could buy a little Reffi every year if I needed to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Not to sound like a know it all, shlump fiester.. But there is the NEB, There is also a group in RI, There is also a group in CT.. The NEB (which has a thread here in IFI) New England Blacksmiths.. Just had their spring meet.. It was a working meet so if you wanted to learn to make Pre cut tongs or to forge weld with yours truly it would have been the meet to go to.. There were a bunch of guys from down your way that worked it had a bunch working with me.. Next meet is in the Fall In Colrain MA.. As to getting the anvil quite.. The best way is to bolt it down as tightly as you can.. With a wood stump it's kind of hard if you leave the stump round.. I made a special setup that worked mint but it has to be on a square or truncated affair.. With a steel stand that is well made with rubber pads under it will be about the quietest. The ringing is minimized and the thump from the hammer is absorbed mostly.. While it's not a great forging setup as you will lose a little efficiency it will be quieter.. There were a whole bunch of anvils for sale at the meet and they were decently priced.. Because of the experience of many members here, there is a certain lack for people who say, won't or can't find an anvil.. Personally I own a few old ones... But I also own a new one.. Well it was new last year.. Eventually I will own another new one which will be the last 1 I buy if I can help it.. I would save the pennies and just buy new.. Go to the scrapper and just ask for a hunk of metal.. Just starting out.. One doesn't have the best hammer control and has a tendency to do damage to anvils.. With this said, you might get lucky and find that perfect Hay Budden or Peter wright still in the factory shipping crate.. Only to use it once and knock a corner off.. These vintage anvils are history.. New anvils are actually in some regards better priced than used anvils now.. I paid 5.00 per pound.. . The difference is a used anvil will show you both how good or bad the smith was that owned it and/ or just how well it was hardened and tempered... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Thomas - I second the budgeting. I too am the sole supporter of my household. We have to budget every dollar and my monthly allowance is $15 to spend on myself and there were years it was $0. Redfoxx - I'm currently building an addition on my shop for a blacksmith shop. You know how I'm raising money? I'm selling stuff around the house, making stuff and selling it, and I now have enough money saved up to rent a mini excavator to dig the foundation area and have the concrete poured. Heck friends and coworkers are having me sell stuff for them on Ebay because they don't want to mess with it - I keep half the profits. Much of this involves extra work by me, but I'm willing to do it to get to the goal of having the addition and a place I can forge all year. Somehow, through it all, I've bought an anvil and all the tongs, hammers I need plus a new forge. It's taken me over 2 years to get there with lots of scrounging around junk shops and even getting some excellent scores on Ebay (4 blacksmith hammer heads for under $30). I hear you completely on a tight budget, but know it is possible to do a lot with very little but it just takes more takes time and LOTS of personal effort. Those hammer heads from Ebay, well I had to clean them up and make handles for them (notice I said make and not buy new ones!) The anvil needed a complete cleaning. My post vises both needed to be completely broken down and cleaned (cleaning 100 years of gunk out of a screwbox is so much fun) and greased. This is a craft that requires a lot of work if you don't have the money to drop into new tools, but I think I appreciate my tools much more than if I bought them new and it teaches you the value of them. Don't get discouraged or in too much of a hurry. I've seen insullated stove piping on Craigslist that people have pulled out of their house after getting rid of a fireplace - it was really cheap. Be patient, and someday you'll be posting similar replies to others on this site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 I once was a cofounder of a group that got together to carpool 2 hours to go to the SOFA meetings; saved cash and was a lot of fun especially as we stopped at a fleamarket along the way for postvises and pie. I didn't intend to suggest that the NEB was the only group around and a lot of affiliates have branches all over their "territory"----like Salt Fork; just trying to say you need to dig deeper. As for needing the horn and step you can learn to work around them or make tooling to replace them. Here is a post anvil I made from a RR spike driving hammer I use a hand made bic for arrowheads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Thomas P.. sorry if it seems like I was inferring anything.. Must have left words out... I have been trying to open up people to realize there is a RI and CT group as a way to get active sooner than the NEB meets.. I'm still to new to understand or say, who does what.. But it does seem so far that the smaller RI and CT groups get together at the NEB meets also.. I love what you done with that spike hammer.. Brilliant.. I am a big time saver.. It's what has allowed for me to buy the things I have. I'm one of those sub standard livers. I squeek by.. I don't eat out, or buy drinks and such on the road.. Today was 100miles and I had brought a few bottles of water.. I also look for deals if I can.. a few anvil merchants will have sales and I wait for these.. I actually have 2 savings funds.. 1) big items and 2) can live with outs but why not.. And I do keep them separate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 That was about 8 years ago when I wanted to make a "horn" to go with my Y1K "cube" anvil. The 2.5" sq stock has been the heaviest stuff I've worked---so it waited till I could visit another smith and use his 200# chambersburg..... No problem with sharing that there are more groups out there; I'm amazed at all the folks who say there isn't anyone near them; but have never asked at the closest group. I remember one who was on here who found out the President of the local group lived on the same road as they did... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfoxx Posted June 9, 2018 Author Share Posted June 9, 2018 should be picking this one up sometime tomorrow if hes still got it. he wants around 3 bills for it. its 166 lb i believe. birmingham hill. dont know much about the brand. but it looks solid. the fat base should cut down on the ring i would imagine. and since its double the weight of my current beater, hopefully the earth thumpers will be mitigated. its about time i grew into a bigger anvil anyways. i apreciate all your advice guys, and you are right, there are things you can do with out, fabricate yourself. etc. but ive kind of been doing this long enough where i do not want to "do without" fabricating isnt an issue except for heavy welding. my shop really needs its own breaker panel. also installed two 12 inch exaust shutter fans in one of the windows. over 1200 cfm. but i should extend a warning to guys who use exaust fans to cool your shop. i noticed with the doors and all windows shut it creates a strong enough negative pressure that it will backdraft the forge chimney! so ill be putting up a warning sign. i kind of like to idiot proof things since i have alot of friends who want to try things. it keeps the smoke from oil quenching, paint fumes etc to a minimum and helps keep the shop around 20 degrees cooler than the outside. forgive my forwardness. think of it along the lines of "im tired of taking shortcuts, i want to be more like chandler dickenson today, instead of chandler when he started i actually have a tool just for arrowheads. its a mini anvil like item for my hardy. its got a horn for cleaning tapers, a bit of rod to straighten tapers at the neck, and a u shaped groove to make curling the socket a breeze. made from truck springs. you can see it in the corner on my vulcan in the pic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 (as far as the comment on boxy angular stands. i made one for my fisher i have as a spare.) Did I read right that you also have a Fisher anvil? If so that is a far better anvil than the Vulcan will ever be. Scrounging does not mean settling for less than what you want. I have scrounged up some spectacular deals on some very expensive stuff over the years. It just gets down to do I want it "right now" or can it wait a little. To be honest, I would have gone with something other than a $1,300 flue to start with. That could be changed out at a later date when money was not so tight. Get the important stuff first that can MAKE money, so you to get the items that are icing on the cake, or bling but don't really contribute to the income of the shop later. I cash flowed my machine and fab shop back in my early 20's by buying at auctions (10 cents on the dollar of used on average), and scrounging what we could. We could afford it if we could lay the cash down was the mantra. As to the anvil. If you don't get the one you just posted look into JHM anvils. I have one that is 125# and it is a nice anvil. BUT, I would have no issue using an old forklift fork or any other improvised anvil because to me as long as it does the job, it is a good anvil. I don't get all doe eyed over "vintage" anvils, they are just a tool. Luckily I got mine before the current forging frenzy hit and drove the prices through the roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 You do know that your stand will be much improved if you orient those pieces VERTICALLY Right? You lose energy at every interface so vertically you have anvil:top of boards and bottom of boards:floor == 2 As shown you have: 4+ Anvil:plywood, Plywood:top boards, top boards:middle boards, middle boards:lower boards; and I expect there is at least 1 more set of cross boards if not 2.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfoxx Posted June 10, 2018 Author Share Posted June 10, 2018 tom, the stand was from the seller of the anvil. not my personal design. ill be using it for a place to hold it up for restoration. then it will go in the fire bin. ill be making a much better stand for both the vulcan and this one soon. i totally agree on the building of a stand with what you are saying. as far as the fisher goes. i respectfully disagree. the plate on my vulcan is thicker, and my fisher has a hunk missing off the top plate about 2 inches in size next to the hardy. the rebound is also inferior. i cant explain why. but when i flatten iron on either, i have to work less hard with the vulcan than the fisher. both are around the same weight and size. this weekend im going to clean up the hill anvil. ill make a new stand for both fairly soon. i was planning on using the fisher for mobile setups and demos for reenacting. in regards to the flue, i live in an area with strict ordinances concerning stove pipe and the houses are close together and the shop can be seen from the street. i built it according to code and to insure the flue will never ever be questioned to be a potential fire hazard in the eyes of any would be inspector, fire marshall, or insurange agent. the rest of it was reclaimed brick, and scrap iron i welded together. ive had mobile smaller forges for years. but now i have a proper working large indoor forge i can operate year round. ive been forging for 15 years. i didnt start with a 1300 dollar flue. i started at my moms house when i was 14, using a converted boxwood stove and a leaf blower. i built this shop 2 years after moving into my home. i sell campware and flint strikers to reenactors and sutlers all the time. just not in large enough quantities or regularly enough to make large profits at this point and time. however, my goal is to get the coal stove hooked up so i can keep the shop warm enough to work year round, and hopefully by next season ill start building up an inventory. and getting my foot in the door to more retailers. though these sales would be "incidental" since im not operating a business in a residential area. but i would make extra items to sell at events so i can putter around for demos and make whatever i want. instead of spending an entire weekend making tent stakes like my last reenactment lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Vulcans are known for having thin top plates, has the Fisher been decked at some time? The one on my 150# Vulcan is fairly thin. Now my 260# Fisher is my main anvil because it is so quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Vulcan's are notorious for thin top plates; I have one worn all the way through that shows it clearly. Be careful that you do not equate the "false plate" casting as being the thickness of the face plate. However if your Vulcan has a harder face than your Fisher---something's wrong with the Fisher! My main shop anvil is a 468 pound Fisher; quiet, massive, hard face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfoxx Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 honestly im not sure. my vulcan other than the edges is in very good shape. the previous owner only used it in a upolstery shop to nail tacks for old arm chairs. i mean both tops are hard. but i just seem to need to hit the fisher harder to work the material. its not cracked or anything. i simply dont have an answer other than my vulcan could be a tad heavier. at least i think its a fisher. theres too much corrosion to be sure, but theres a circular symbol on the side, and its cast base steel top. with a small portion of the face delaminated near the hardy. about just shy of 1/ 4 inch thick. so heres my new Birmingham. i think one owner was a sloppy welder. its got small bits on the feet that appear to be welding slag. the face had pits in it, either from corrosion, or from someone arcing a stick welder. the hardy has some serious wear but still usable. you guys were right. even with the crappy stand the seller gave me. shes not thumping like the small boys are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 I can't tell you what's going on with your other anvils but please, PLEASE stop grinding on them. It'll shine up nicely by hammering hot steel on it, grinding just removes useful years you can't replace. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Please remember that cast base doesn't indicate what material, there are anvils out there with cast aluminum bases, cast steel, cast iron, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfoxx Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 the face of the anvil was covered in slag from stick welding the only place i took material off was to take the sharp edges off the chipped areas. if you look at the base you can see spots of hot metal stuck to the feet from stick welding rod. i used an angle grinder and a flapper sanding disc and wire brush.. i only ground the lip at the step because i need it clean for arrowheads. i would have liked to grind it down to the point where most of the pits were gone, but i know better. i just made the surface smooth enough to not mark the hot work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 If you need a specific edge for a task; it's not hard to make some tooling for the hardy hole that has even several specific radii. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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