Noob fundamental question about presses

[shackleblister]

Ok folks so have been working pretty much with wood my whole life. Save for the rigging, but that was mostly building vessel moorings. Don't know much about presses and what the capabilities might be, but I'm sure I don't want my finger under a 3 ton.I would like to know the size requirements of a press capable of making a small indent into 1/8" sheet steel. Literally the first step in making a carbon steel skillet. i would have thought maybe a 3 ton arbor press- NO WAY. 1/8inch is some tough stuff. How about maybe an 80 ton hydraulic press? I have the dies made already, they are a 3"L section of 10' ID pipe, with an 8" round billet about 2 inches thick to do the press. Starting out with a 12.5" round of the 1/8". I made a bunch so I can try different presses as I find them for sale.

Thanks. Shack

[the iron dwarf]

hot or cold?

with 30 tons I bend 1" square with a  7/8" radius into a staple cold in a couple of seconds and can dish 1/4" steel 2" deep.

hot I can do a lot more

[shackleblister]

Well we were hoping to do it cold. As seen above, a 3 ton ratchet arbor press ( am i saying it right?) would not do it. The guy with this press for sale (CL), told me not to even waste my time going to see the 80T hydraulic. Said we would need something like a 40,000lb press or some such thing. Also warned i could do damage to the press itself or worse yet, injure (read; kill) myself. What would actually be the dangers in this- as i said not familiar with presses or iron/steel work. Don't need a steel frisbee in my gut but wouldn't be the worst thing to ever happen to me. If i use the manual 80T, and center my dies, and go nice and slow … what honestly could happen? I know stuff sometimes goes flying...

 

thx. shack

[Frosty]

Next time you're talking to the guy with the press for sale point out that 40,000 lbs. is 20 tons.

So, you want to press a 0.125" x 12.5" dia. blank into a frying pan in a press. . . . COLD?!  Think on the order of thousands of tons. If you were to have access to a stamping press you could maybe get away with 100 tons IF you're stamping it hot. 

Were I setting this up in a shop equipped for it I'd call it a plant and do it in two break downs. First would be cut the blank with handle using either a die blanking punch press in the 100-200 ton range. Induction forge and the stamping press. Trademark, trim, grind, finish and off to shipping.

Pressing a unit like this is NOT of a scale any normal home shop could do. Well, except for maybe Thomas but he'd be using explosives out in the desert somewhere.  Not to rain on your parade but this is  one of those things that just isn't practical in any realistic way, not even in most unrealistic ways. 

If you wanted to spin frying pans on the other hand it'd be very much doable, you just need a beefy spinning lathe, someone to hold torch for you and the rest of the equipment to prepare the stock and finish the pans.

Frosty The Lucky.

[shackleblister]

I dont "point out" anything to someone of met on craigslist : )

I will look into the stamping press,  but  i must say i like the iron dwarf's reply better.

ok so like i said, i "wanted" to do it cold. i'll heat it then try it on the 80T- why not?

"rain on my parade", "isn't practical", "unrealistic"… makes me want to do it even more 

and yes i have considered spinning. more on that later, need more intel on a press.

thanks so far guys. call me shack, or hard headed : )

[Frosty]

You gotta be a LITTLE hard headed to be a blacksmith and seeing as you can buy most any hardware off the shelf practicality isn't our forte either. Keep us in the loop please Shack.

Frosty The Lucky.

[rockstar.esq]

I don't know boo about presses but I met a blacksmith at a hammer in who'd made a bowl out of 1/4" thick plate using a manual fly press.  I don't know the size of the press but he didn't just whack it into shape with a single blow.  He was working with hot stock in smaller sections at a time.  

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

There is more to pressing steel than just a press. Die design, radius at the bottom of the cup, type of steel being used, speed of the press, etc... The tighter the clearance between the punch and die will require more tonnage. A fast speed on the pressing will require less tonnage than a slow press. The type of steel will also affect press tonnage as there are alloys designed for deep drawing to resist tearing. 

To get smooth sides without wrinkles the metal will have to stretch into shape. Will the sides be straight, or angled?

How many of these are you looking to make?

Start here by reading this.... http://bowmannz.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/StampingDesignGuideline.92222443.pdf

 

[shackleblister]

Thanks for the read Doc, interesting stuff. First off, I misspoke about the thickness of my blanks I think. I am using 12ga and according to his table that is equal to 0.150, so am I correct that it is a touch under 1/8"?

And yes my punch and die will have plenty of tolerance, the punch is approx. 8" and the die will be exactly 10" (prototype). And that leads me to answer in the affirmative to your question about the sides, and I also now know why you asked. They will yes be angled, and the author mentions that the walls of my blank may well be thicker where the bottom of the punch lands. I am sure the punch will come out of the blank easily. Not so sure about how much persuasion might be needed to extract the blank from the die.

I took some of that into consideration, and chamfered the punch. Lubrication is mentioned, so maybe I can oil the blank or die? I figured it might be difficult to remove the blank, and I was hoping that there would be some kind of "spring back". Sure enough, that too is mentioned in the article, and here I was thinking I myself coined that term. I may cut some slots in the die just so if it gets stuck, I could get something in there to pop it out.

I am not too concerned with the wrinkles you mention, and what the author refers to as "bend bulging". After all, we are moving next to the forge, then some hammering. I would not object to the skillet itself having a more rustic look anyway. Kind of want a nice flat bottom to it however.

I am thinking it would be nice to maybe make say, 500-1000 pcs, but in reality If I find a suitable press, I would probably start with 40 or 50 blanks.

5 hours ago, rockstar.esq said:

I don't know boo about presses but I met a blacksmith at a hammer in who'd made a bowl out of 1/4" thick plate using a manual fly press.  I don't know the size of the press but he didn't just whack it into shape with a single blow.  He was working with hot stock in smaller sections at a time.  

holycow 1/4" Yeah we all agree I will need some heat.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

1/8" is .125" and 12ga should be thinner than that, as 11ga is around .120" . The bigger the number the thinner it is.  12ga is .105" not .150"

Unless you clamp the blank at the rim and then press it , it will come out looking like a brioche pan.

Getting stuck should not be an issue with a straight wall punch and die with 1" clearance-unless you stuff it down into the die. 

If it was my project I would be turning a punch and die the shape of the pan. with enough clearance for the material thickness. The blanks would be large enough so a spring loaded ring would clamp it down as the punch went into the blank. Then trim the rim off.  If you want an idea what is going to happen when you press it, put a piece of paper in the die and set the punch on it. Sheet steel will pretty much do the same thing.

Spinning would give more consistent results, and the tooling is a lot less cost wise.  500-1000 pieces will require heat treated punch and die and the requisite die set to hold them. $$$$$$ 

Not sure what market you are shooting for because there are black iron skillets on the market already.

 

[shackleblister]

My dyslexia, auto correct, or a typo misrepresented what I thought was the 12ga dimensions. Of course it is .105".

I understand the brioche pan analogy, and yes a sheet of paper into the bottom die would resemble that very much. I just figured …thats what you get- and move along to hammer the wrinkles out. Is that ridiculous? Serious question.

Maybe I need to start a new thread (after searching the forum obviously), about spinning. I am equally unknowledgable about that technique, although I've seen it done.

I have a fairly promising marketing plan, but it is not ready for the entire world wide inter web yet 

i have recently been sent a link to a YT video on another forum of which I am a member. If I can figure out how to post it here, it is pretty interesting and shows a guy DOING what I am attempting.

Thanks for all the insight thus far. Shack. aka hardhead.

 

[Latticino]

14 hours ago, shackleblister said:

I have a fairly promising marketing plan

Suggest you contact Bob Tuftee, (a member on this site under the user name Bob T) who already markets a carbon steel skillet/frying pan blank and see how that has worked out for him before making a huge investment.

[JHCC]

16 hours ago, shackleblister said:

i have recently been sent a link to a YT video on another forum of which I am a member. If I can figure out how to post it here, it is pretty interesting

Just paste the link into a new comment.

If the video has commercial content or any kind of bad language, don’t post the link here. Instead, post the title and the name of the YT channel. 

[shackleblister]

6 hours ago, Latticino said:

Suggest you contact Bob Tuftee

Thanks for the tip, read most of his posts and sent PM to him.

3 hours ago, JHCC said:

Just paste the link into a new comment.

 

This might work. Short vid, our action starts at about 1:15, although the whole thing is cool.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjmvEoRCLJE&feature=youtu.be

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

And yes, done hot it would work, but not cold like you want to do.

 

[shackleblister]

Oh man was I ever smitten when first I found this press! It was in the old Winchester Arms factory in New Haven. Prabably 100 years old. I know the guy that contracted to salvage everything out, and he now has this baby for sale. Off I go, with my discs of 1/8" and a very rudimentary punch/die. I can't wait to spin this solid bowling ball size implement on the counter end of the lever. That thing itself must be 100#. By all accounts, this flypress is a pig, and the guy tells me have at it and to be as forceful as I need to be, "you're not gonna hurt her".

So I center my cave man looking prototypes under the screw. Lower it down and make contact, my frisbee GIVES, a little. I know I am going to make a nice deep-dish. Well, I wound up having 4 separate guys give her a whirl, slow and steady, fast, 2 guys at a time- the old cold steel just wouldn't give.

Heat. I need to heat it first, as mentioned. The press has got a 3" thick base and I'm sure will prove to be a heat thief. I'm still looking for a press or other ideas to do this first skillet crunch. I wound up with a kind of nice little platter to serve oysters. Would enjoy hearing about any insight into this press in the meantime. Thanks guys.

Shack is undeterred. I'm beatdown, but not beat!  Standby.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Preheat your dies.  Make them from an alloy that doesn't transmit heat as well.

How many leads does the screw have?  

And do a quick calculation of how much umph you need.  For A-36 yield strength is 36000 psi  How many sq inches are you trying to bend at the same time?

If it will do that cold it will probably be great hot!

 

[Lou L]

Wow, Shack!  How do you find stuff like this in CT?  I’m trying to find places holding on to equipment like this and can’t, for the life of me, find a thing.  I guess it’s all about knowing someone.  If you have any possible contact send please PM me.  I’m on the hunt for a small press.

[ThomasPowers]

Have you tried the used machinery companies---especially the *old* ones.  The NE was famed for their clock and jewelry manufacture and were probably the most screw press rich area in the USA at one time.  You want to rind the folks with one way back in a collapsing storage area as they have moved on to "modern" equipment.

A friend in Arkansas used to get a used machinery paper from the NE and that's how he bought the 8 or so large screw presses he used for coining. 

[Lou L]

I have checked every used tool/machinery place in CT and they all deal with industrial stuff: CNC, huge presses, mills, etc...

I know this state is rife with old machinery because it was once loaded with manufacturers.  I live minutes from the old Colt Firearms factory and a dozen other historic manufacturers who are either reenvisioned or closed.  I can’t figure out where all the old equipment went.  I have one more contact with an old machinist/metalworker who still runs his own shop.  He is the older brother of a friend and promised an introduction.  He is apparently a collector and “knows things”.  I’m waiting for my promised trip to his shop that is, as I’ve been told, nearly impossible to navigate.

[SLAG]

Mr. Lou L

Many of those "redundant" machines were dumped at auction as manufacturing businesses closed or off-shored. Many of them were auctioned off & bought for a song by our future competitors in the third world and elsewhere. Read: some went to Europe, & much went to our de facto enemies in Russia, Red China etc. They will be/are used to undercut us. And eventually, those tools will be analyzed,  researched and improved,  And, ultimately, used to make products that will beat us and supplant us in world markets and trade.

How can we profit from this? We most certainly can.

The American de-industrialization is still going strong.

There are auctions, still going on full tilt.

Check out industrial equipment auctions, and dealers, in order to buy the diminishing amount of dumped equipment, as it will eventually run out. 

There is still much worth buying.

It's worth the effort.

SLAG.

[shackleblister]

10 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Preheat your dies. 

How many leads does the screw have? 

If it will do that cold it will probably be great hot!

 

It had never occured to me to heat the dies, ok the punch I can understand. And of course the disc.

I'm not sure what the "leads" question is asking, but perhaps the answer is that one full revolution of the handle provides for 1.75" of screw travel. This will help in whatever formula we might be trying to come up with. The punch is yes a very crude rendition of what would possibly be used, but of course at this stage of the rabbit hole, I just want to size my press as close as possible to do the job. It is 8" diameter so I guess I'm attempting to bend about 25 sq inches.

It is true, I was very impressed with this first attempt at cold pressing, thanks for the encouragement!

Once I made contact with my pan, and kind of pulled on the handle, I also took to whipping the handle around. I think I got about half a turn all told. With that huge solid ball at the other end, it literally felt like there was another guy at that end! It was motivating to say the least. I will sleep on the purchase, unless maybe the seller lets me bring the heat on, although that is unlikely as the piece is stored in an old 30x600 wooden chicken coop he uses as storage.

 

[ThomasPowers]

A thread on a screw can be thought of as a piece of metal bent around the solid center. Typical screws and bolts have 1; screw presses generally have 2,  flypresses: 3 or 5.  2 provides more pressure but slower advance. 3+ provides fast advance.  Generally screw/fly presses are used by bumping---raising up off the piece just far enough to get to maximum speed when accelerating the weight down, (and using the bounce to help raise it for the next go.)

(if you would like to see one like mine, look down this page till you see the big blue one: https://ronreil.abana.org/flypress.shtml )

New ones are being sold; but at quite expensive rates; mine was cheaper than dirt at a factory auction where nobody wanted "low tech" stuff bought in 1959 and soon hidden away in the toolroom with everyone wanting to use the hydraulic press that they bought a year or two later...(I got to talk to an old retiree who showed up for the auction and remembered them buying the screwpress new.  I paid about US$100 for: bid price + buyer's reaming + a rigger loading it on my truck...most folks use language NOT allowed here when I tell them that...I remember an old saying that goes with the TPAAAT: "The More I Search the Luckier I get")

[shackleblister]

The above link is FANTASTIC.

16 hours ago, Lou L said:

Wow, Shack!  How do you find stuff like this in CT?   I’m on the hunt for a small press.

Well, I attribute this particular find to just plain old dumb luck, although I keep my eyes peeled constantly. Someday I will show off "what followed me home".

I also have a number of pickers that in theory know what I'm looking for. That does not mean that I don't get the occasional call with an offer of a washer and dryer : ). I am known for buying bases, legs, platforms and pedestals from older/industrial tools and machinery. I re-purpose them with live edge slab table tops.

If you are looking for a small press, this baby is not for you, I estimate it to be in the 2000# range.

I will message you some intel Lou.

[ThomasPowers]

I sort of wondered if you were aware of it; why I did the link instead of just a picture...and left it to see if you would do due diligence (vs cleaning up after your dog which would be doodoo diligence)

My introduction to screwpresses was brokering a deal between two of my friends: one had a screwpress (from the old Packard plant iIIRC)  they wanted to sell and the other had mentioned wanting to get one. I put them together and Wham a deal was struck. 

(BTW that screwpress was #1 for the Shirepost mint and can be seen at https://www.shirepost.com/blogs/news/how-a-fantasy-coin-is-made painted blue and decorated. I've used the "electric screw press" shown under that one---What are friends for when they show up for a visit---free labour! Tom is an old friend of mine, his wife was the person that introduced my wife of 33 years to me in the first place...)

One of my major uses of my screwpress is to take top swages with destroyed hammering pads and forge them down to act as bottom swages in my Large Fisher anvil with 1.5" hardy holes. The screw press makes for smooth parallel sided forgings.  My students like it for flattening blades before finishing. (Distal taper?  We don't need no stinking distal taper!---sigh)