When do you finally throw scraps away

[DavidF]

Thanks For the feedback SLAG. My plan is to only harvest the anode grids. I plan to neutralize the,contaminemts nefore I discard them. Smoking the grids in acid, prior to heating seems like it may address the issue, but I haven’t researched that process enough yet. If you have experience or examples you can share, I would be very thankful and will read anything and everything you have to offer. But keep in mind, I only want to harvest the anode grids to act as the nickel in my multilayer Damascus. It seems this can be achieved safely, but I am all ears for any input. If it becomes too involved, I may just substitute 15N20. From my simple mind, it seems like I can get the anode grids without exposure, but research will tell. Here is one example of a guy doing it. This gave me the idea for using the batteries. Please review this video and point out any concerns. The only thing I saw that I didn’t care for, was that he took the powders, where I believe we are agreeing this is the danger area, and simply working bare handed, unmasked, etc with those materials and then simply discarding them. If harvesting the anode grids is safe enough, and I can then neutralize these powders, I think I can find a process to harvest and discard leftovers in a safe manner. Anyway, I am very interested in feedback because I have not completed my research and I know we have some beaker heads here that can provide advice to NOT do it, do it, but follow these safety guidelines, or everything appears fine, no concerns.

Here is the video which started my thoughts towards attempting a similar Damascus attempt. Let me know any and all thought. Thanks gentlemen

 

[VaughnT]

Over the last few years, I've made a concerted effort to get rid of all my "regular" scrap.  I keep one or two coil springs around because I use them pretty regularly for punches.  Once the coil is down to the last few inches, though, I can pitch it without too much worry.

Those tiny little pieces from the saw and such... they go in the bucket and get tossed as soon as the bucket is full.  I'm not going to make damascus or bloomery iron from them, so there's no sense keeping them.  Of course, one 5g bucket doesn't take up a lot of room in the shop, so it's not that big a deal.

One thing I did last year was to use the off-cuts and other garbage to fill in a cylinder that I turned into a dishing stump.  Sand took up most of the space, but all the little bits of steel going in was a nice way to add some weight and get rid of the mess.

I couldn't believe how much stuff was at the bottom of the bucket, things I thought were great and I would use one day.... but which ended up buried and forgotten.  Two years later, I found them as I filled the cylinder and figured that it was better to simply entomb it all!

 

Pieces of flat mild steel that's 5" or longer... I'll keep that around because it can be used for a lot of stuff.  Keeping it organized and handy so I can find it when I need it -- that's the real problem!!

 

[SLAG]

Mr. DavidF,

There is a great difference between handling a high nickel alloy steel "bar"  and nickel powder derived from the battery anodes. The finely powdered nickel is mixed cobalt to form a spongy matrix that becomes the anode.

These two nickel sources are very different, and react very differently.

Generally, nickel carbonyl [Ni(C=O)4] is formed via the reaction of nickel, carbon monoxide, and heat.

Both the powder and the nickel alloy will generate the poison gas. But there is a vast different difference between the two. 

The nickel, in the alloy, forms  a  solid solution with the predominant iron. When heated a minute amount of nickel reacts with the carbon dioxide gas to form nickel carbonyl. The gas does not react with most of the Ni because it is in the metal matrix (bar).

Nickel powder consists of Ni in a finely divided powder. The above reaction will form millions more Ni (C=O)4. Why because that powder has a huge amount of surface area. Being finely divided means that the gas reacts with all the particles. The results is an enormous amount of Ni (C=O)4 gas.

In my opinion, such a nickel recovery process is hazardous requires special equipment, knowledge, experience and fine tuning, that neither you nor I have.

In other words "suicidal thrift".  (my coined phrase, but dedicated to the public, royalty free, (but attribution would be appreciated)).

The anode does acquire contaminants containing rare-earth elements/metals, and aluminum. That must be removed  by carboxylic (organic) acid leaching. (acetic and citric acids were found to work best). I wrongly stated ascorbic acid in my first post on this subject, above. I choose to blame that error (mine) to fatigue and mild dyslexia. Sorry folks. The ascorbic acid was used to clean up the hydroxide products from the cobalt at the other pole, namely the cathode.

After that preliminary acid treatment the nickel is leached out by concentrated hydrochloric acid.

You need read only the abstract (on the first page, of the research paper cited by anachronist58 in his post). Holmberg's thesis https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1674/409df57054c85fca9fc921eae713ef11220e.pdf Thanks John.

All the details are disclosed there. If you want a good succinct description of the nickel carbonyl process. Wiki "Mond Process" for the details of same.

I hope that this rather involved post provides you with enough information to make  an informed decision whether to recover nickel by treating spent anodes.

Regards to all I. f. I. citizens.

SLAG.

[DavidF]

SLAG, thanks for taking the time to educate me. I have also been discussing this with Robert in DMs. I have definitely been influenced by the feedback and will not be attempting to harvest anything from the batteries. I agree that the cost of the bar versus the risk from the batteries makes this an easy decision. I made the mistake of assuming the YouTube content made this seems feasible. I had planned to investigate a safer means of harvesting the contents, but as you mentioned, I lack the knowledge, skills, and equipment to do this safely. I won’t bother researching this since the cost of 15N20 makes any savings senseless (in fact, I would say it would be more expensive in terms of time and materials). Again, thank you and Robert for taking the time to review my post and set me straight. I don’t want to be on the IFI list for a Darwin reward! LOL!

[SLAG]

DavidF,

You are welcome.

It was most worthwhile getting the information out on nickel carbonyl. That hazardous chemical is not well known except in inorganic chemistry circles (also industrial chemistry and metallurgy.)

Hopefully Glenn will pin these notes, on nickel carbonyl, in the safety section of this site, together with those on zinc, hexavalent chrome. and manganese fumes, etc.

Give my regards to Robert the next time you talk to him.

SLAG

[ThomasPowers]

Funny you stating it's not well known; I recall mention of it in a G.R.Dickson story 40+ years ago, IIRC; used as a method of killing "invaders" with a population of suicide volunteers luring them into the danger zone...(Odd in that it wasn't due to my Mother loving murder mysteries and as  I'm an omnivorous reader by the time I headed off to college I knew a bunch about poisons, drugs, kinetic methods, etc.  I even tracked down the Poisonous Plants garden at Cornell once---only time I've seen poison ivy trained on a trellis...A misspent youth is a joy forever!)

[Borntoolate]

When you have a flood and clean up puts you in a "Get rid of anything that doesn't have a near immediate use!'   After that you go back to accumulating.

[MC Hammer]

I'd say if it's too small to be held by tongs then it needs to get turned in at the junk yard for cash to buy something that can be forged.  With that said, geez, I'll take some of the stuff you are throwing out guys 

[bigb]

I generally throw stuff away about a week before I need it.

[ThomasPowers]

So lucky; I tend to throw stuff away the *day* before I need it! (and that really hurts!)

[Elemental Metal Creations]

6 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

So lucky; I tend to throw stuff away the *day* before I need it! (and that really hurts!)

The very reason I don't throw anything out. I have thrown thinks out after 10 years and needed it the next day.

 

[Will Brouwers]

With some of the flat bar, couldn't you make small some forged L brackets? Or what I have been doing is cutting up 3/4 square bar and making dice out of them. I am still trying to figure out if sticking them in the forge, roughing them up a bit and coating them with beeswax is still considered forging...

[ThomasPowers]

Do you hot punch the pips?

[Frosty]

Roughing a project up for cosmetic reasons is called "texturing" and isn't forging. Beeswax or other coatings like boiled linseed oil is called, "finishing," like varnishing a wooden box or waxing a table.

If you "broke" the edges and corners, that's flatten or round slightly so the dice aren't sharp and hot punch the pips you could say they were forged and not be lying. 

Forging is changing the volume and shape by applying force from the outside. Bending, brushing, filing, polishing, etc. are often necessary to produce a finished product but they aren't forging. Forging doesn't have to be hot if you can hit it HARD enough.  Heading a cold rivet is an example of cold forging.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Will Brouwers]

Aha. Thank you for the clarification. No, I do not hot punch them. I like the look, and the ease, of cold punching the pips.