Brass is commonly used to burnish hot steel, but what about copper? My son has recently returned from Canada and I asked him to bring back a brass snowboard brush. He found one at Whistler and brought it home, but I discover that it's copper not brass. Today I made two billy lifters with long horn bulls on the top. One I burnished in the usual way with brass and the other with the copper brush. The copper is much darker and more subtle than the brassy finish. I thought it would impart more of an orange colour. Anyone else used copper, or any other metal, to put a finish on hot steel??

 

were you using a higher temperature for the copper?

Yes, I did use a higher temp, but perhaps not high enough. I'll give it another go today and really sizzle it on.

What temp about are you doing the brass brushing? What temp are you shooting for with the copper now?

With respect to this topic I struggle to find the correct temp for getting    The steel to take color. Is there a tried and true technique?  I have tried    Applying a drop or two of water and allowing to cool just after I no longer get a sizzle but even that seems inconsistent for me. Any wisdom I could apply to get a more consistent color?  

It is hard to estimate the best temp to get brass to take. I usually heat the metal to a really dark cherry red and clamp it in the vice. Give it a really good (not nearly good) brush with a wire brush to remove all the scale. It has to shine - bare metal. Then a swipe with the brass brush and observe what happens. If it quickly turns brownish/purple and then vanishes it's too hot. Try the smaller parts first (eg horns on a bull, the tip of a leaf) as they will get to the right temp before the main mass. Keep testing until the brass takes with a strong colour and then quench. It will still sizzle in the quench tub.

With the copper, I tried it at all temps from red down and got nowhere - just a very dark brown, weathered copper look. I prefer the brass.

I saw Little Blacksmith's copper leaf and was inspired. Found a copper bolt in the scrap and thought it would make a good long horn. Very different from forging steel. Anyway, it worked pretty well and I didn't need to struggle for a bright copper finish! It's about 120mm tip to tip.

 

To get the copper look on steel. I've seen others use copper wool. Didn't work well for me. So I just brush the steel or dip it into etchant that is contaminated with copper.

These longhorns are really neat. I want to learn how to make them. I have some cowboy friends that would really like them

I a a actually have more luck with copper. I have a nice piece of copper about 6x 6 x 1/4 and just when the steel gets black I go to a wire  wheel and hold the copper above the steel on which I am putting the color. .sometimes it takes a moment or two but it will take color fairly quickly.  Thanks Ausfire that is exactly the tip I was looking for. Brass patina has frustrated me for some time. I have seen smiths make it look easy,  not for me for some reason. I know it is the temperature of the steel. The window for temp must be fairly narrow. 

Really like that bull aus! glad I inspired you, cool that someone like me had an effect on someone experienced as you, cool! yup, copper is much different than steel, limited working temps, got to be careful not to melt it, was surprised the horns survived and didn't melt good job! Forged aluminum, If you haven't than I recommend trying it out, it is really easy to move, literally like moving clay, but you can work it colder. Just heat it up till it is hot enough to make wood smoke, then forge. It is a joy to forge.

                                                                                                                                                       littleblacksmith 

Thanks LB; I must try aluminium (or aloominum as you say!) sometime. Yes the copper was touchy and there was frequent dipping of the horns to ensure they didn't melt. I found a nice piece of 12mm brass rod about 400 long, so that's the next experiment - a long horn bull camp oven lifter with that. I'll post a pic if it works. If it doesn't I'll keep quiet.

14 hours ago, horse said:

Brass patina has frustrated me for some time.

Horse, are you sure you are trying with a solid brass bristle brush? Check it with a magnet if not because they sell brass coated steel brushes that won't work. 

Very cool tip about the copper, I'll have to try that. 

 

Aus, that's an impressive copper bull. 

Will check with a magnet but pretty sure it is all brass. Should have thought about the magnet before. That bull head is very cool. 

17 hours ago, horse said:

Will check with a magnet but pretty sure it is all brass. Should have thought about the magnet before. That bull head is very cool. 

And try to find a brush with fine bristles. Some of those coarse wire things from hardware stores are too thick. I think I have mentioned before, snowboard brushes are the go. Bit hard to get in tropical Queensland though.

BBQ brushes are often made from fine brass wire and fairly easy to source. Copper wire brushes I've not been able to find so recently made a couple, not tried them yet though.

If you can get your hands on copper sulfate, it will make a copper finish on steel. We use it mining and the steel scoop we use gets a nice copper coating I haven’t tried it on a forged project though. 

12 hours ago, BlasterJoe said:

copper sulfate

Zep RootKill - 99.9% copper sulfate pentahydrate - so you're paying for a little water, but it's pretty cheap.

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 3:26 PM, ausfire said:

. I found a nice piece of 12mm brass rod about 400 long, so that's the next experiment - a long horn bull camp oven lifter with that. I'll post a pic if it works. If it doesn't I'll keep quiet.

Silence is golden.

So, what happened and why?  I'm sure we can learn something from it with you.  

I missed this comment earlier, Das. Well, the brass rod just didn't do the right thing in the forge. As soon as it came up to heat I tried tapering it and it fell apart like crumbly cheese. Maybe here are differing qualities of brass.

Thanks for your PM about brass brushes.

These arrived in the mail today. One el cheapo thing from Hong Kong which I don't think will be much use for burnishing. The other two are from a company called Race Wax in Massa chusetts. They were pretty expensive (+ freight of course) but they do look to be of superior quality. I'll give one a try at tomorrow's demo.

 

There are HUNDREDS of different brass alloys and MOST of them are not forgeable!  If you don't know the exact alloy then you are rolling the dice. (and if you find a source of forgeable brass---then stock up as the next time it might be a different alloy!)

I have never used a copper brush, but done quite a bit with a brass brush. I get them from a auto store like Napa.

Brush it at a black heat and about the same heat as a hot oil finish.

Finish depends on how much you apply. A light skiff picks up just the highlights. Get it on and it can look like solid brass.

I like doing a hot oil finish after brushing. It turns a beautiful antique darkish look. The brass is on the highlights and the lows are hot oil dark.

1 hour ago, anvil said:

I like doing a hot oil finish after brushing. It turns a beautiful antique darkish look. The brass is on the highlights and the lows are hot oil dark.

I do this on leaves. Makes them look like fall in the Midwest. Great advice.

9 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

There are HUNDREDS of different brass alloys and MOST of them are not forgeable!  If you don't know the exact alloy then you are rolling the dice. (and if you find a source of forgeable brass---then stock up as the next time it might be a different alloy!)

Yet copper is quite forgeable (if you're careful). Must be the zinc that spoils the party, eh?