Gunter anvil repair method

[D.C.]

Ok....so I know this is a very hot topic for many. I personally fall into the "anvils are a gift from God, don't defile them" camp.

However...I would like to hear from anyone who has PERSONALLY been involved with or observed an anvil repaired PROPERLY with Robb Gunters method.

My main questions are

1) Was the faceplate near the weld noticeably softer than the surrounding steel (logic says it has to be to some degree)

2) Does the Stoody rod blend with the rest of the face (unlike 7018 or other high nickel rods)

3) Were you satisfied with the results of the repair

4) (open to all opinions) When is this repair TRULY necessary. When does an anvil go from tool that should be utilised, to a collectors item the ought not be touched?

Here's a pic of the anvil that's leading me down this road. An otherwise beautiful Mousehole missing a valuable chunk of real estate.

FYI This is not my first anvil, this is not my only anvil...I technically do not need the hardy to be functional....but it pains me to see something not live up to its potential.

 

[VaughnT]

I've wondered about the first few, but #4 I can answer.

 

Mousehole anvils are not particularly rare or hard to come by.  You MH has no known significant historical value, no ties to a bigwig locally or nationally.  It was likely a working man's tool that might have had a flaw from the factory or bing horribly abused as a child.

With those first two points in mind, I'd repair it and not feel bad about doing it.  If nothing else, you're bringing a tool back to full service and learning a valuable lesson in the process.  After fixing it, you won't have to ask your first three questions because you'll know for yourself and can help others by sharing your experience.

[ThomasPowers]

I've know lots of people with anvils repaired by the Robb Gunter method and have not heard a complaint yet.  I myself have had a couple done and they are using anvils not display anvils.  Not a issues with face colour that I recall.  I think that was the method used by SOFA for their shop anvils---and why I had wondered where SOFA was getting so many mint anvils...until I saw a "before" picture.

[D.C.]

So I guess the next question is

Would YOU buy an anvil that had been repair properly, and tested out good?

Would it be worth more, or less than a chipped up but usable untouched anvil?

[ThomasPowers]

If I *KNOW* it was repaired *CORRECTLY* I would pay more.  The problem is: how do you know?  Caveat Emptor  is a term that goes wayyyy back and the internet is clear proof it still applies today.  I run across a lot of "well the seller told me it was a great forge/anvil/turnip twaddler" and they often get quite irate if you tell them it's is NOT and not worth half of what they paid.  I take autos in to be vetted by a mechanic when I buy a used one; I've seen people pay more for an anvil without vetting than for some of those cars....

I've gone out dozens of times with new smiths to check out equipment.  Never asked even for a coke for doing so.  When we suggest folks find a local smith it's for a lot of reasons. The internet is NOT the best way to do something a lot of times.

[Frosty]

I've participated a couple times and about a year of so back repaired one that only had edge damage. The owner was bound and determined to "restore" his anvil whether or not it was necessary and seeing as he had a friend who's Father has a buzz box was going to do it himself regardless. Soooo, I did it for him by the Gunther method.

As a matter of semantics Mr. Gunther made a well established method of welding hardened high carbon steel without adversely effecting the heat treat a common method for anvil repair. Hence "The Gunther method."

I didn't have Stoody products easily available so I used another brand of steel on stone hardface rod and their build up rod. 

If you wish to maintain the hardy and pritchel holes without having to grind them to final shape use copper chill plates, bars to stop the beads where you wish. I used chill plates to prevent beads rolling over the edges and minimized grinding on the anvil mentioned above.

IF a good color match throughout the face is important hard face the entire face and grind to finish. EVEN if you have to weld the plate's sides to the body.

One test of display over utility, form over function in other words would be a person's worrying more about color match than how well the repair works.

I have a 206lb. Trenton that OBVIOUSLY has edge "repairs" performed and bought it even though the rod is a long way from a color match and worse in my opinion the person who ground it didn't know what they were doing and a good inch of the edge is sloped down to the edge. Its sitting on a steel stand in my shop as I type. She's a fine hard working anvil.

Would I take the seller's word as expert evaluation?  That's a NO. I am an expert at evaluating welds and anvil properties, even before I owned my first one but I went to trade schools a long time and an anvil has required properties that have parallels in many pieces of equipment I did have experience with.

Frosty The Lucky.

[D.C.]

I've passed on welded anvils in the past, because as you say Thomas, buyer beware. I was thinking long term. I would never want to withhold information if I was to ever sell this anvil. But, I would also hate for the repair to look identical to a bad repair done with incorrect rod.....hence the question about color.

I have no experience with anvils repaired in the RIGHT way. It sounds as though people with far more experience than me trust Gunter method IF PERFORMED CORRECTLY.

Thank you all for your input.

Frosty: Did you use Lincoln Excalibur brand rod by any chance? I was told Wearshield15CrMn = 2110, and Wearshield Mi = 1105

[Alecsey p]

Здраствуйте, подскажите до какой температуры греть наковальню перед сваркой, и до какой температуры после сварки? Подскажите нужно после сварки закалить лицо наковальни?

 

Zdrastvujte, prompt to what temperature to heat an anvil before welding, and to what temperature after welding? Prompt you need to harden the face of the anvil after welding?

[ThomasPowers]

When we did my anvil preheat was 350 degrees FAHRENHEIT  (176 C).  By using the correct rod we did NOT have to try to heat treat it afterwards. We let it cool slowly from the preheat/weld heat.

we used an optical pyrometer to judge temperature; but welding stores here offer tempil sticks that show temperature for welding.

 

[Guest]

I have repaired Anvil's Much Worse !! & Have done Over 100 + in 20 some years & Not 1 complaint !!

so repair done right Work's / If you can weld ?? it does take a lot of time !! I also talked to Stoody's  Rod Tech's

back then just to make sure &*** That was Before I heard of Rod G !!

Steve's Welding & Repair - Fab & Blacksmithing

the need for My First Anvil started me down that LONG Road I have anvils in 6 states that I know of

[Alecsey p]

22 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

 но в сварочных хранилищах предлагаются палочки темпиля, которые показывают температуру сварки.

 

but in the welding stores are offered templating rods, which show the welding temperature.

Что это такое и как ими пользоваться? У вас есть фото или видео сваки лица наковальни?

What is it and how do I use it? Do you have a photo or video of an anvil face welding?

Можно наварить слой 13мм?

[Charles R. Stevens]

Templi sticks are plastic crayons that melt at a given tempature. So you preheat the stock until the stick melts when applied. Some IR themomiters will go high enough if you weld a lot of High carbon steels.  

[tanglediver]

So, back in the 90's I worked in construction, and I made lots of leather repairs with rivets. So when I ran across a steel anvil at Harbor Freight, I bought it for setting rivets, and because anvils are cool! These days, I know that it lacks good rebound, being about 55%.

Well, I finally read through the actual Gunther method article, http://www.anvilmag.com/smith/anvilres.htm , and I thought to myself, "I can DO that." So I have decided that I really want to layer some Stoody hardfacing rod across this anvil' face, and see what happens. I welcome any opinions of those who have made repairs in the past. ( Frosty, Iron Wolf) If there is a better rod than Stoody 2110 and 1105, I am all ears! The rods are easily more expensive than the anvil, which I paid about $80.00 for new.

[Guest]

I use 1105 have had no problem with it even if I build it up past what they say is good !

2110 is a bit harder One day I will get some & use on the edges 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The 110# Harbor Freight anvils were supposedly OK, the later cast iron ones are not. Which one do you have? If it is the cast iron version then it can be a problem getting a bead to stick if the wrong rod is used. Cast iron welding is not simply running a bead.

As to your #1 question. The face can become too brittle along the weld if it cooled too quickly - no preheat. I would keep the face at a maximum of 350F to minimize drawing too much temper out of the original heat treating.

[tanglediver]

It is definitely steel, and yes, this one is exactly 110 pounds. I will preheat to 400* (as suggested) and plan to slow cool in vermiculite (which i need to find first). Even it was cast Iron, we've welded cast iron before with lots of preheat (like 800*), but I'll save that fight for another project, like grandpa's broken wood stove. I've been considering this project for years. It's time to kick this party in the ribs!

[JHCC]

2 hours ago, tanglediver said:

vermiculite (which i need to find first)

Garden center should be able to sell you a bag. You can also use wood ash and/or powdered lime. 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Gray wood ashes is what I use in a cut down 55 gallon drum. Fluff them up and put the item in.

If it is cast steel you may not need to weld it at all, but do a better heat treating on it. 400F preheat is too hot for me, because as soon as you start welding you will push the temp past that quickly.

Here is what I would do as a test.  Take a torch and heat a corner of a foot bright red and quench it, test with file. If it hardens, do a better heat treat as opposed to welding. Ceramics kiln will get it hot enough, as will a good sized fire.

[tanglediver]

49 minutes ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

Gray wood ashes is what I use in a cut down 55 gallon drum. Fluff them up and put the item in.

If it is cast steel you may not need to weld it at all, but do a better heat treating on it. 400F preheat is too hot for me, because as soon as you start welding you will push the temp past that quickly.

Here is what I would do as a test.  Take a torch and heat a corner of a foot bright red and quench it, test with file. If it hardens, do a better heat treat as opposed to welding. Ceramics kiln will get it hot enough, as will a good sized fire.

I was thinking of a wheel barrow shell to nest in for cooling, but I don't have that much ash just now, though the price of ash is right!

Interpass temperatures are not discussed in the article, but with multiple passes, I just take my time in between and watch the temps. 

The heat treat approach makes a lot of sense, but a proper quench is more and more challenging by the pound.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

You only need to get the top hot. This would be a good job for an induction heater.  Also remember that even mild steel is harder then yellow hot steel, so just use it as is and don't worry about it. The returns would be minimal for the effort and expense expended.