Do you know where I can find a , , , ,

[Glenn]

Do you know where I can find a , , , ,

If you want to find a xxx, then go to the place that sells or uses xxx. 

For instance, if you want to find fish, then go to a river or lake or where there is water, not in the middle of the desert. Fish do not live in the desert, as they are water creatures. If you want to find steel, go to the place that sells steel, uses steel, or recycles steel. If you want wood then go to the forest, the mill, or places that use a lot of wood. If you want pallets, then go to the place that gets lots of shipments on pallets and throw the things away, or where they have to pay to have pallets hauled off. Places now recycle pallets and throw away all sorts of scrap wood. One such place near here calls the fire department and tells them when they plan on burning the excess so the fire department does not get alarmed.

Back to blacksmithing, for steel, go to a large fabricator or job site. Ask politely to go through their scrap bins as you are looking for this type metal, or this size etc. Donuts and personal safety equipment will usually allow you into the back areas on a Friday afternoon. Want spring steel, then go to a place that makes springs, or does custom work for pickups and other off road vehicles. They sometimes install kits and just throw the new parts they take off the vehicle into the dumpster. If the part gets bent or broken, it is replaced and the old one goes into the dumpster. The corner garage that does repairs has a scrap pile behind the building full of interesting items.

The stuff is out there, and many times can be had for just being polite and asking. If they are busy, then come back later. Nothing will get you into the good graces of local small shops like a half dozen or dozen biscuits one morning, or call ahead and tell them you will bring over 4-5 pizzas at lunch. Both are cheap when compared to the phone call that says, can you stop by, we have something you might be interested in.

Want blacksmithing tools etc, then go to where blacksmiths gather. They know where the good stuff is located, or at least where it can be found. 

It boils down to respect, and being sure to say THANK YOU.

[SmoothBore]

We've seen several such postings in recent times.

Posts that have the feel of someone trying to ask for a handout, ... without actually saying so .....

Just sort-of "opening the door" to see if anyone steps up with a well intended offer.

I'm inclined to think it's a "sign of the times", ... where the virtue of self-reliance, ... and the stigma of charity, ... are fading away.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I was going to mention this before, ... but didn't want to offend anyone.

 

Thank You Glenn, ... for creating an opportunity to air this issue.

 

.

[Lou L]

Not to steal a curmudgeon's thunder but... my 25 years of coaching and/or teaching have lead me to the realization that instant gratification and learned helplessness are the new norm.  I always take the risk at the start of every school year and tell my new students that they have been lied to by their past teachers and possibly their parents.  "The lie," I tell them, "is that there IS such a thing as a stupid question."  There is actually shock on their faces when I say it.  Often students tell me that a teacher should never say such a thing.  I go on, after their agitation subsides, to explain what a stupid question actually is.  My definition: A stupid question is one you don't endeavor to answer yourself before you ask it.

I get some pretty hilarious responses after that.  I once had a boy laugh out loud and proclaim that he must ask an awful lot of stupid questions.  I had one student argue that I should change the term to "lazy question" because "stupid" was a loaded term and wasn't quite accurate.  It was a well laid out argument but I was steadfast in my resolve, explaining that the appearance of stupid created by asking such questions was just as damning as actual stupidity.

[Frosty]

You are not defined by what you do once in a while but by what you do most of the time. We've all asked a stupid question, maybe for good reasons but usually just laziness.  If you ask stupid questions all the time . . . DOH.

Instant gratification is a fine thing IF it's available and unless you're CNC skills aren't available by the download. I've had a lot of kids out who want to be an apprentice blacksmith, spend maybe a couple hours discovering you can't become one for a few bitcoins they have to want it enough to work hard. Real honest blood sweat and tears want it. Most of the lot have moved onto something else.

I think it's always been a sign of the times, we sound just like our parents and I'm sure they felt similar when they discovered they sounded like their parents. Ughh, what are these kids coming to chipped rocks, ROCKS. Modern kids too lazy to sharpen a stick, don't they know rocks are for throwing? And did you see Mahg's kid? He put a rock in a strip of leather and was whirling it around his head!  What wrong with kids today?!

Frosty The not as PC as Smoothbore. 

[gote]

You may be a little hard on the stupids. It is not necessary lazyness when people are asking where to find things. A newbe who has only been to the visitor's part of a repair shop does not understand that there is a scrap bin somewhere in the back nor does he understand that bits and pieces can be had. He is not too stupid to understand. It is just that his thoughts have never been in that direction and they will not get there unless there is some nudging. A newbe will also not understand by himself that some of the professional shops will sell also to private persons. (But some only sell by the truckload). What is absolutely basic thinking for a curmudgeon is uncharted waters for the newbee.

Glenn's advice is excellent and should make anyone who reads it realize how to do things. Please make it a sticky

[SmoothBore]

11 hours ago, Frosty said:

Frosty The not as PC as Smoothbore. 

It's not nice to call people nasty names.

What if I came up there and called you a Chee-Chalker ( Chechaquo ) ?

Something like that could destroy the delicate balance between Psyche and Self Esteem. 

[Glenn]

OK, I had to look it up so may as well post the results. (grin)

Chee-Chalker: a newcomer to Alaska and the Klondike; an Indian word meaning one who is inexperienced or has no knowledge; a tenderfoot.

[notownkid]

22 hours ago, Lou L said:

have lead me to the realization that instant gratification and learned helplessness are the new norm.

This is very correct.  Everything has to be right now this moment don't ask me to wait.  This I find in 2 sets of grandkids 1500 miles apart and never see each other.  They go nuts if not catered to instantly and completely.  They know everything about everything and none are older than 10.  I know one set has a part time father just like this, goes through jobs on a regular basis as he isn't moving up fast enough and the next one will have him Corp. Pres. in a yr.  I see this in the so called Millennium groups as well.  We were at a large party at my Step sons recently and he and his fellow age groups have done well for themselves are in charge of groups of workers in different fields today as they are in the + 40s age.  they all said they have had nothing but trouble with recent hires of the Millennium folks.  Most were saying it is a strike against them when they apply now.  People use to ask about pay now most ask about advancement schedules regardless of work performance.  If they start racking up absences and they are questioned they are saying it's their right to come to work or not.   

On a side note my former step daughter in law was saying yesterday she got a new App. for her phones which allows her to monitor her kids phone use, limit the time a day they can be on and caps a time when they shut down and allows her to stop anything but G rated viewing.  Plus she can shut down the phone for what ever time she needs for punishment that sounds like a needed app on all parents phones. 

 

[SLAG]

Glenn  et. al.

I remember the phrase as Chee Chakko.

Frosty I need your expertise in this matter.

Thanks,

en avence.

SLAG.

[Lou L]

Frosty, I've been trying to believe what you posted for years now.  But it seemed like, each year, students and athletes I worked with were more focused on the trappings of success and less willing to work for them.  They wanted to be celebrated and were actually upset when they didnt get constant feedback telling them they were awesome.  Soon thereafter parents started showing up making excuses for their child's deplorable behavior, arguing for their varsity letter despite the fact they were not athletically successful and otherwise championing them mindlessly.

It was then that I started reading and researching.  Turns out that there is a mountain of evidence that environmental factors including sociopolitical, economic, etc...have changed the personality traits (in general) of the generations.  It has been measured in a variety of studies and validated that the current generation of young adults are twice as likely to be narcissists.  Another longitudinal study of children from ages 9 through their teens identified "parental overvaluation" (child worship essentially) as the direct predictor of narcissistic traits later on.

I totally agree the younger generations have always inspired the ire of the older.  Ancient Greek scholars complained about the laziness of the youth in their time!  I think that a lot of the complaining about the youth (including mine) comes from the place Frosty described.  But they are different.  Similar to Notown's experience, my friends who do a lot of hiring are having a hard time with the twenty somethings in their workplaces.  I was just told of an interview in which my friend asked the first generic question his company (GE) uses to start interviews: "Where do you see yourself in this company in five years?"

The girls's response (a young engineer) was, "In five years Im going to have your job."  He responded, "I've been in this company for 28 years, what tells you that you can get this high up in five?"

"In college I learned things that prepared me to do your job better."  She was serious.  They interviewed 400 people to fill engineering positions and had to settle on the best ten they could find.  They were only truly happy with half of those.  That one girl was the rule, not the exception according to my friend.

Im not being alarmist.  I'm just saying that this generation is demonstrably different from the previous.  They actually have a number of strengths as well.  There is a whole field of research in Generational Differences designed to help organizations successfully manage people based upon their generational biases.  You can check out a really intriguing chart comparing the last three generations here: http://www.wmfc.org/uploads/GenerationalDifferencesChart.pdf

 I think maybe the internet has made us all a bit more impatient and yet it has provided us more information than we could ever digest.  My apologies for prattling on but this is a topic that gets me excited!  As a teacher I am particularly close to the topic because I see the disconnect between my student's home life and public life daily and I think it's a topic that needs a voice

[Frosty]

The word, "Chechako" is an Alaskan Native mispronunciation of Chicago. I don't recall who but probably Tlinget or Hayda. The story goes that during the gold rush a company of prospectors from Chicago arrived who firmly believed they were going to show the primitive savages how things should be done. The few left were for the most part surviving on charity before the next spring.

So, the proper usage of Chechako is as a know it all person who in reality is dumb as a sack or rocks. Or a person who arrives with a bunch of preconceived notions. They're generally pretty entertaining just don't feed one or it'll never go away, worse than a stray cat.

Of course we can't say mean things about people now, after all they are trying so they're opinions are just valid as anybody's. The acceptable modern use is, "newcomer". Old timers roll our eyes and use it correctly quietly between ourselves. A person can't be a proper Chechako till they're at least teenagers and persevere in the teen know it all attitude into adulthood. Some never fade, some chlorinate themselves though we try to prevent self chlorination it takes a lot of volunteers to find them.

I've read your post twice now Lou and still don't get the "trying to believe what I post for years" thing. I'm generally pretty good at inspiring a suspension of disbelief in my readers. Where have I gone wrong Lou? I'm always looking for tips and new ways to polish my "likable Bull Shooter persona."

Frosty The Lucky.

[SLAG]

Lou the girl you speak of exhibited the howl of adolescent inexperience. Time will disabuse her of her illusions.

If not. then she is terminally dull witted.

Regards,

SLAG.

Incidentally, the Inuit term for non-native is kabloona

P.S. Please do NOT pick on Frosty, he's my friend.

[SmoothBore]

1 hour ago, SLAG said:

P.S. Please do NOT pick on Frosty, he's my friend.

He started it !

He called me a "Pee Sea".

Now, I don't know what that is, ... but it sure sounds dirty. 

.

[SLAG]

Mr. Bore,

.Could P. C. refer to personal computer? I cannot imagine that he would be alluding to urine. He is a gentleman.

SLAG.

[Lou L]

4 hours ago, Frosty said:

 

I've read your post twice now Lou and still don't get the "trying to believe what I post for years" thing. I'm generally pretty good at inspiring a suspension of disbelief in my readers. Where have I gone wrong Lou? I'm always looking for tips and new ways to polish my "likable Bull Shooter persona."

Frosty The Lucky.

I think,you misunderstood me.  I've been resisting the urge to proclaim this generation "qualitatively different" for some time and assumed the situation was exactly what you said.  In other words, I have been trying to believe the same exact thing you posted...that it's just a case of generational nearsightedness...older people just not adapting to the newer generation or forgetting they were the same way those years ago.

Total and heartfelt  apologies for the poor wording!  It sounds crass now that I go back and read it.  I was trying to say that I agreed with you for years but that my experience as a teacher/coach and subsequent research has changed my views.

 

Dont worry about your persona...it is fully intact.  I've just threatened my own!  I'm on a tear lately about this issue and the devastating decline in executive function skills in the youth of the Western world.  Other countries have recognized the issue and some have even created old school playgrounds with broken down cars, rope swings and fire pits and don't allow parents to enter so kids can develop normally.  In the US, however, parents get arrested for letting their kids walk alone a half mile to the playground.

[rockstar.esq]

Lou,  I can see where you're coming from and commiserate with your frustration.  It's going to sound trite, but I believe it's not currently fashionable to do the right thing.  I think this is a big problem with the Boomer and "X" generations. I think it's reasonable to expect this lack of righteousness is what's bringing successive generations down.

Just about everything is presented to maintain plausible deny-ability and a non-judgemental air while creating the opportunity to act without regard for consequences. 

Simple stuff like answering a friends call or an email has gone from being a pleasant social interaction to a waiting game to see if better options present themselves before answering. I see Boomers doing this as often as Millennials.

Terms like diversity and collaboration are popular terms for groups that are more interested in virtue signaling, than they are in virtuous action.  Very, very little is done to promote transparency or accountability. There's always some contrived complexity preventing the honest thing from happening.

"The thing you've gotta understand..." is a common preamble to excusing the status quo that just happens to facilitate a bad behavior.

It's Wednesday, and already I've encountered six adult professionals trying to cheat their colleagues in one way or another this week.  I've got over a dozen projects with managers who have spent the entire job hiding out so as to avoid accountability for leadership problems on their projects.  Out of hundreds of companies I've worked with, there's only a handful who are consistently honest, forthright, and accountable.  Those few companies work diligently to foster a culture of excellence that discourages the malignant management that you'll find at other firms.  Simple solutions seldom offer short-cuts.

If you look at the business journals the articles present a lock-step message that every company must focus exclusively on education, diversity, collaboration, and communication.  Sure, that sounds nice, but it's operating on the assumption that a variety of educated people talking in a large groups will be more beneficent than a good leader and hard-working staff.  What we get is the tyranny of cowardice.  It could also be described as a religion of mediocrity.  There's no objective performance measurements because that isolates and identifies the incompetents.  Everything is a proxy for something else like how educational achievement supposedly indicates worker suitability. Colleges aren't rewarded for practicality, which is why their graduates are so poorly qualified.  The student's get blamed for being lazy or stupid, yet it's the older generation maintaining higher ed's gatekeeper status.  Applicable skills testing would be far better for everyone but HR and higher Ed.

It's my opinion that those two institutions have created the disconnect between knowledge and applied skill.  They didn't accomplish this on their own; honest people had to play along.  For example, lots of people got their masters degree because it brought a pay raise, even when the education had no impact on their job performance.  Over time the quality of the learning and the work become less important to everyone except the employer who can't compete.  This progressed until today's graduates come to a market where everybody's got a degree, but nobody's got a job. 

I believe this is the root of the participation trophy inanity. 

If people admitted they can see the difference between honest solutions and virtue-signalling buffalo chips, they might feel obliged to take responsibility for their actions.  Until such time as that becomes popular,  honest and hard-working people will enjoy a significant competitive advantage over their peers.

 

[Marc1]

On ‎31‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 3:52 AM, Lou L said:

Frosty, I've been trying to believe what you posted for years now.  But it seemed like, each year, students and athletes I worked with were more focused on the trappings of success and less willing to work for them.  They wanted to be celebrated and were actually upset when they didnt get constant feedback telling them they were awesome.  Soon thereafter parents started showing up making excuses for their child's deplorable behavior, arguing for their varsity letter despite the fact they were not athletically successful and otherwise championing them mindlessly.

It was then that I started reading and researching.  Turns out that there is a mountain of evidence that environmental factors including sociopolitical, economic, etc...have changed the personality traits (in general) of the generations.  It has been measured in a variety of studies and validated that the current generation of young adults are twice as likely to be narcissists.  Another longitudinal study of children from ages 9 through their teens identified "parental overvaluation" (child worship essentially) as the direct predictor of narcissistic traits later on.

I totally agree the younger generations have always inspired the ire of the older.  Ancient Greek scholars complained about the laziness of the youth in their time!  I think that a lot of the complaining about the youth (including mine) comes from the place Frosty described.  But they are different.  Similar to Notown's experience, my friends who do a lot of hiring are having a hard time with the twenty somethings in their workplaces.  I was just told of an interview in which my friend asked the first generic question his company (GE) uses to start interviews: "Where do you see yourself in this company in five years?"

The girls's response (a young engineer) was, "In five years Im going to have your job."  He responded, "I've been in this company for 28 years, what tells you that you can get this high up in five?"

"In college I learned things that prepared me to do your job better."  She was serious.  They interviewed 400 people to fill engineering positions and had to settle on the best ten they could find.  They were only truly happy with half of those.  That one girl was the rule, not the exception according to my friend.

Im not being alarmist.  I'm just saying that this generation is demonstrably different from the previous.  They actually have a number of strengths as well.  There is a whole field of research in Generational Differences designed to help organizations successfully manage people based upon their generational biases.  You can check out a really intriguing chart comparing the last three generations here: http://www.wmfc.org/uploads/GenerationalDifferencesChart.pdf

 I think maybe the internet has made us all a bit more impatient and yet it has provided us more information than we could ever digest.  My apologies for prattling on but this is a topic that gets me excited!  As a teacher I am particularly close to the topic because I see the disconnect between my student's home life and public life daily and I think it's a topic that needs a voice

Interesting topic. What makes one generation different from the previous.

The reply in the job interview is a classic, probably learned in a self help book, and used thinking it may impress the interviewer. However the impatience, the need for instant satisfaction is more complex and starts very early at school and even earlier.

The classic sentence repeated at nauseam by the politically correct is "you can be anything you want".

Hello? There is a fallacy if there ever was one. No, you can not be anything you want despite what the Amway rep tells you. It does not work that way.

I use to have competitions at school, and we had first place, second third. Today such is politically incorrect, "everybody wins". No first no second no last person in a race... just in case we discourage someone .... Oh my... I can go on all day.

[gote]

I suggest reading 'The Japan that can say No' - especially the parts writtem by Mr Morita. It is slightly dated but the observations on US business are similar to my own. You can find it under http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/japanno.txt

We have problems with the same roots in Sweden. PC is guiding many thing into the wrong direction.

[ausfire]

9 hours ago, Marc1 said:

 

I use to have competitions at school, and we had first place, second third. Today such is politically incorrect, "everybody wins". No first no second no last person in a race... just in case we discourage someone .... Oh my... I can go on all day.

Yep! As a teacher I saw that all the time in recent years. You get the do-gooders, the bleeding hearts that can't stand to see anyone disappointed. Everyone's a winner ... can't hurt the little darlings' feelings. Everyone gets a trophy for participation. No wonder they enter the workforce with the idea the world owes them something.

I have seen teachers reward the most sub-standard work as though it were deserving of a prize for literary genius. Poor spelling and dodgy grammar - all OK because we don't want to upset them by correcting their efforts. Gone are the days when a teacher would tell a child to repeat work that was unacceptable. We are not even allowed to mark in red ink any more - it's too threatening.

For our reporting, you can't give a kid a position in class or a percentage rating compared to others. Parents have no idea of how their child is really doing. I have written at length on this in the past, and received a breach of code of conduct notification from the Education authorities for doing so. I'm retired from teaching now so I can say what I like.

Yes. PC has a lot to answer for.

[Zeroclick]

I found this conversation interesting as both a being new to blacksmithing and what may still be considered young (26). I also am a leader at a local scout unit and I have to say that there is a sharp increase in this if you fail then just give up attitude. But that this almost seems to depend on the parents as there seems to be this attitude of you can't be harsh with my little cherub that a lot of parents seem to have, as I tell my scouts if you push yourself and achieve something that you failed at to begin with then you will always be proud of it.

In terms of blacksmithing locally in the paper there was a position for two apprentices and they could not get anyone, when asked local people said it was to much hard work and to me that just speaks volumes on the values of young people.

[rockstar.esq]

Zeroclick,

That's really cool that your local paper has advertisements for apprentice blacksmiths. 

I doubt they would have any trouble finding willing applicants of all ages out here.  Any job that offered pay equal to the median wage for my area would be inundated with qualified applicants. 

Speaking for the working-class Generation X people, I can say the job market is not what it claims to be. Wages have been stagnant for going on 9 years now.  I've seen the commuter traffic to metro areas increasing exponentially over the last 8 years as the suburban jobs dried up. When it takes a college degree, a decade of experience, and a 2 hour commute to land a job paying what you made10 years ago, it's hard to believe lazy Millennials are the reason there's a shortage of skilled workers.  I know a whole lot of Generation X people who are under-employed, or unemployed who'd jump at any chance to improve their career.

I think there's evidence of a shortage of real trade in the economy. Things like Uber and AirBNB exist because the people buying and the people selling these services are broke.  It's pitched as a sharing economy, which I'm guessing is polite parlance for depression era necessity.

 

[Frosty]

Oh come on Lou, don't you know me well enough by now to know I can't resist a good straight line? I was razzing you, we're pretty much on the same page if from a different perspective.

Mr. . . . Bore. I didn't say, "Pee sea!" . . . Ewww. Honest!

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Marc1]

10 hours ago, rockstar.esq said:

Zeroclick,

That's really cool that your local paper has advertisements for apprentice blacksmiths. 

I doubt they would have any trouble finding willing applicants of all ages out here.  Any job that offered pay equal to the median wage for my area would be inundated with qualified applicants. 

Speaking for the working-class Generation X people, I can say the job market is not what it claims to be. Wages have been stagnant for going on 9 years now.  I've seen the commuter traffic to metro areas increasing exponentially over the last 8 years as the suburban jobs dried up. When it takes a college degree, a decade of experience, and a 2 hour commute to land a job paying what you made10 years ago, it's hard to believe lazy Millennials are the reason there's a shortage of skilled workers.  I know a whole lot of Generation X people who are under-employed, or unemployed who'd jump at any chance to improve their career.

I think there's evidence of a shortage of real trade in the economy. Things like Uber and AirBNB exist because the people buying and the people selling these services are broke.  It's pitched as a sharing economy, which I'm guessing is polite parlance for depression era necessity.

 

I someone would advertise for blacksmith apprentice in Sydney, he would be wasting his time. We are in such a boom in building that you are hard pressed to find any trade related to building. The larger building companies work with tradesman brought in from easter europe, UK, and anywhere else they can find them. No trade qualification required since the builder signs the job off. Quality? well ... don't get me started.

I needed to get the roof repointed, and had to call the grey army, a group of semi retired tradesman over 55 that do small jobs. No roofer would even quote. 

[rockstar.esq]

Marc1,

I occasionally correspond with a Construction consultant who's in Perth.  It certainly sounds like there's plenty of work to go around in your area. I'm glad to hear things are good for the trades out there.

This may sound strange, but it can be difficult to get a roof quoted here too.  The majority of the year's work out here is government funded.  Schools in particular are both built and remodeled around the summer vacation.  The summer rush is so intense that construction companies have to make 90%+ of their annual revenue in 5 months.  After that, we starve and a lot of companies resort to layoffs around this time of year.  Tradesman, and especially apprentices grow tired of working only 5-6 months per year.  There's no career advancement or pay raises.  Every summer, fewer tradesman and apprentices are willing to leave whatever job they could find to tide them over the winter.  So year after year we face more summer jobs than we can manage, with fewer people to perform the work.  If just 20% of the clients would push their projects to a fall start, it would completely turn things around.  Projects would be cheaper, we'd lose fewer tradesman per year, and more stuff would get built.  If that happened, I suspect the annual construction spending would go down because the summer rush work is bid at 2-3X the Fall starvation rates.  Instead, we have industry reports citing the year-over-year construction spending increases as though the tradesman shortage is a total mystery.

Out here roofing is a particularly volatile trade even in the best of times because spring storms bring a fresh crop of insurance work every year.  Between the government-induced seasonal rush, and the hail-damage, roofing firms are all kiesters and elbows while the summer's on.  Come fall, they tend to hibernate like tax accountants after the filing date.  A lot of them in my area use transient workers who follow the work across the country.