To all those smiths who told me railroad spikes were useless

[Forging Carver]

Well, I haven't posted in a while on this site and I have my reasons for it. I just thought I would let all those blade smiths who told me I was wasting my time making knives from railroad spikes. Even the high carbon steel ones they say, will still make a crummy knife. I have even heard someone say that a railroad spike knife won't even cut butter. In a nutshell, I should stay away from railroad spikes even to have fun or to practice. But, the fun out of making something out of a railroad spike wasn't going to stop me because some blade smiths told me so. Now we know that a railroad spike can even pass the journeyman blade smith test. Can a railroad spike knife still not cut butter? Am I really wasting my time even to just have fun or practice forging? To my opinion no, but I am sure some of you will find a reason telling me otherwise. Thanks Chandler!

 

Mod Note Inappropriate Language in the video. The video link was removed.

[Steve Sells]

Of course he bent it 90 degrees without any breaking its mild steel.    He seems to be so intent to show us he knows more than all the bladesmiths and metallurgists, he forgot the purpose of a knife is to have a knife edge that lasts.   I pointed out before that we can get paper cuts but don't want to make a knife from it. Many cultures have used copper alloys for blades also.

So much of his language is a violation of IFI policy, many F bombs.  Lucky your link dodnt get you nailed.  If you think it should remain posted,  I ask just watch from 55 minutes to end, keep a list of his words, and then talk to me, the rest of you could look up you-tube for Mr Chandlers rants.

[Glenn]

The knife he made did cut a 1 inch rope with one swing, cut a 2x4 in half twice, and did bend 90 degrees, but did not recover from the bend. Can you make a knife from a rr spike, yes. Are there better materials to use to make the knife? YES !!

He mentions that it took 8 hours to make the knife from a rr spike. I do not fault him for the effort or the experiment. In fact I applaud him for the full day spent at the forge proving that you CAN make a knife from a rr spike.  The real issue is still the quality of the materials chosen and suitability of those materials for the project of a knife.  

[will52100]

You can make a knife from a RR spike, and you can play tricks with super quench or water or whatever to give it a marginal edge.  Will it make a good knife?  No.  Most people I see buying RR spike knives do it for letter openers and the novelty of it.  Will it skin a deer?  Yes, but then so would a hammered out brass shell casing.  RR spikes can be fun to play with, but the simple fact is they lack enough carbon to make a decent knife.  I have seen some that had a high carbon or damascus edge welded on and have been wanting to try that myself but haven't had time.  I have even seen some high carbon damascus RR spikes made and then forged into knives.

I didn't see the video, but I did see an article from Wayne Goddard about a student passing the free hanging rope test with a dead soft mild steel blade, it folded over in the 2x4 test.  The free hanging rope test is more about sharpness, geometry and speed of swing than steel or hardness.  I've seen dull to the touch European swords cut mats with a single swing.  As for the chop test, would like to examine the edge before and after chopping with a radio shack hand held microscope, think it's something like 30 power?

There are a lot of things you can do with RR spikes, making a decent knife is not one of them.  Even if you add a high carbon edge your still left with an overly heavy handle and poor balance, and is a novelty item would hold a decent edge.  If you forge the head and tang out and add a traditional handle, then what's the point?

[JHCC]

7 hours ago, will52100 said:

If you forge the head and tang out and add a traditional handle, then what's the point?

I haven't seen the video, but I'm going to guess that the point is some version of drop, clip, or spear.

[Kevin Olson]

I watched the vid. It passed the journeyman test but Chandler said if you went into the real test dont use a spike cuz theres better material to use.   Lets drop this discussion. Lets leave it at that they make a knife but not a quality one. Im done reading about spike knives 

[will52100]

JHCC, what I meant by that was that you'd be just as well or better off using a bar of mild or wrought iron as your base for the knife.

[ThomasPowers]

Well A.G.Russell once folded over an aluminium beer can, flattened and honed the folded over edge till he could shave with it.  Guess you can stop using RR spikes and just make Aluminum can knives.  (and HC on the spike DOES NOT MEAN HIGH CARBON STEEL; it means it is a spike at the upper limit of carbon for a spike which is just about the boundary for low carbon/medium carbon steel. )

[Forging Carver]

Right, there are many much better choices to making a knife. My point was that I was told that making railroad spike knives just for fun or to practice was useless, as it made a terrible knife. Maybe the knife isn't the greatest, but now we know that it is not a waste of time as it does make a functional decent knife. Not the greatest in the world, but it's not totally useless like everyone says. And that's not even the point, it's just that I wish everyone would just leave the guys alone who want to make knives out of railroad spikes. If you see Chandlers other videos, you will also see that thy are indeed more than mild steel. And my bad posting something like that that had some bad language, I didn't think about that.

[Kevin Olson]

Hey Chandler. Loved the edited video. That was great how you dubbed in thanking that guy for inspiration. I laughed my off. Your a hoot dude. Love your vids.  Keep it up. Your an inspiration 

[redeagle]

 I enjoyed the video. Many of Chandler's videos are fun to watch and I applaud his efforts. His vids are not presented as a master teaching techniques to YouTube apprentices. They are a video blog of a guy sharing his passion for blacksmithing. Watching his "I'm not sure if this will work but let's try it and see" moments make for good entertainment as does the non-stop verbalisation of his thoughts. I like to watch the chaos in action of his trials, tribulations, discovery, recovery and achievement (or not). I often think I wouldn't do it that way but let's see where he ends up.

I think a RR spike knife is a novelty. I wouldn't call one a good knife by any stretch but they are fun to make and many like them. And if you are having fun or just practicing techniques there's nothing wrong with that. 

[Kevin Olson]

Redeagle. Your post are my thoughts exactly.  :-)

[Latticino]

19 minutes ago, redeagle said:

 I think a RR spike knife is a novelty. I wouldn't call one a good knife by any stretch but they are fun to make and many like them. And if you are having fun or just practicing techniques there's nothing wrong with that. 

Agree, but with one caveat:  If you are practicing techniques for forging knives with spikes and expect the steel to move under the hammer while hot in the same way once you use actual high carbon steel you are in for a surprise.  It will be harder to work, and will need to be worked in a different temperature band to avoid either burning the steel at the high end or cracking it at the low end.  Mild steel just works differently.

Also one of the key elements of making a good knife is heat treatment.  You can't learn that technique with mild steel.

That is why, given the relative low cost of, say, automotive spring drops from a shop that replaces them (to date free with a little dumpster diving for me), many folks strongly recommend that you use actual high carbon steel to forge knives out of once you get basic forging skills under your belt.  Of course anyone is free to go their own path.  We are just making recommendations based on our experience and trying to help.

[will52100]

You've got a good point that I hadn't considered.  I started out with high carbon and knives and moved a little into decorative ironwork.  The difference between something like 52100 and mild steel forging is very large to say the least.  Mild steel moves like clay compared to some of the higher alloy knife steels.

[redeagle]

Kevin, Thank you.

Latticino, I agree with your advice about leaf or coils springs, especially if you are practicing to improve knife-making skills. I'm not saying using a spike is a soup to nuts dry run of knife making. I like decorative ironwork and antique reproduction mostly but am of the school that a good knife is 20% steel selection, 30% geometry and 50% heat treat. Your comment goes for all carbon steel items. Make a punch or chisel with mild steel, 5160, W2 or H13 and you face the same issues. The forging range, difficulty of moving the steel, and HT are all different as is how effective they will be for their purpose.

I don't think it was ever a discussion to prove that a spike is good steel for knives. However, it is a great steel for railroad ties and even coat hooks :-). I've also hot cut with a mild steel hardy and it worked ok but I would not choose to make one like that. I think Chandler was just trying to prove a point (or get a monkey off his back based on his comments). My comment about having fun and practice aims more to the idea that all "iron-banging" time under your belt can teach you something and increase your endurance for forging (and be rewarding in some way or why not take up stamp collecting or something else).

 

[ThomasPowers]

I agree that *all* hammer time helps some.  I also agree that working on a proper alloy for a blade helps in a lot more different areas.  Especially as getting started you really should be breaking a lot of your blades to see how the forging and heat treat has affected them.  Nicer to do that with your starter blades than with your *nice* ones later...

Like Will I started with blades and had my habits canted towards their needs---so it was hard for me to heat mild to a proper working temp for mild and took an actual act of will to get real wrought iron up to it's proper working temperature.  OTOH I didn't have any problems working too cold or too hot as I was trained to keep the metal in the forging zone.

I've see a lot of folks who learn on mild and then mess up trying to work high C alloys as their habits are for what mild steel "allows".  As was previous said: you can get a decent blade alloy for pretty much nothing and then if you get lucky you have a *knife* and not a letter opener or shiv...

[boisdarc]

I get it, I really do. I wish that spikes were a higher carbon content. They are plentiful, and the price is right. I really enjoy watching Chandler he is funny. And not every endeavour is a success, so there is a certain amount of reality to his videos. I honestly ALSO think that many larger than life historical figures used knives or weapons/tools of a lesser metallurgical quality than railroad spikes. Obviously with some exceptions like high quality wootz steel or similar MAGIC steels. But, spikes can make sub-industry standard knives that are still serviceable to a degree. I'm not a metallurgist or a knife guru. But I'm willing to bet most of the folks here have tried their hands at making spike knives and now have that experience to draw upon to say, "spike knives are never going to be great knives in this day of modern super steels". One of my next projects will be spike tongs. 

Sorry for being a bit wordy there.

[Buzzkill]

I think you touched on the real point here.  It's not that you can't make a sharp pointy thing from a RR spike - you can.  We have historical examples of brass, bronze, copper, iron, even bone cutting utensils or weapons.  However, a common theme in history is that sharp pointy things are made from the best material available in that location at that time.  With that in mind, why would you choose to make a sharp pointy thing that you intended to use out of a substandard material?  RR spikes turned into other objects definitely have novelty appeal, but why spend more time sharpening and/or repairing a blade than necessary?  With the abundance of cheap steel that does make a good knife that will hold its edge it doesn't make much sense for anything other than a decoration.   I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone were able to make a bronze knife that would pass the performance part of the ABS journeyman test, but would that make bronze a great choice for a knife?

[TwistedCustoms]

The ABS journeyman test requires the knife to still shave hair after chopping through the 2x4 twice. I'm off to search for the video but after reading through the posts I never saw any mention of the shaving requirement. If the blade won't shave after the chopping portion of the test the Mastersmith won't even continue. I'm not knocking spike knives, I make them, even like them. They have personality. But because I have made more than a few of them I find it hard to believe that one of them passed All the requirements of the ABS journeyman test, I mean it is a pass or fail test. Three out of four isn't a pass.

[Buzzkill]

Chandler did shave hair off his arm after chopping through the 2x4 twice.  Even he seemed to be surprised that his spike knife passed all the performance requirements, but he still said as we do that RR spikes are not great knife making material.

[TwistedCustoms]

Buzz kill, Thanks for the response, I'm trying to download an app so I can watch the video on my tablet. After reading through this thread and not seeing any mention of the shaving I admit I'm surprised to hear that it did.

[Lou L]

It was a good video.  I think Chandler was quite clear that it still wasn't a good steel for knives.  What I took away from the video was two different messages:

 1- He offered an great example (spastic cursing included) of the pure joy of experimenting at the anvil, following a plan and learning.  The excitement of smithing was palpable.

2- his final judgement was that it's not the material, it's the smith that matters.  I personally like the message.  I find myself wasting too much time worrying about getting the "right" tool, material, etc... when I should just be heating, hammering and learning.

In the end, his knife most certainly passed the test and he was more surprised than his viewers were.  The best part is that he did it with heat treat advice from posters on his YouTube channel!  It was a group effort in the digital age.

[will52100]

"it's the smith that matters"  That is true to a point, but materials matter as well.

To me, first and foremost is the heat treat.  The finest high performance steel in the world hammered out on a magic anvil with a poor heat treat can be beaten by a simple steel like 1095 with an exceptional heat treat.

Second is geometry, thin cuts better than thick, if your heat treat is good for the material your using, then you can go as thin as you can for the task.  Don't put a super thin edge on a wood splitter, and don't put a thick edge on a slicer.  I won't get into convex edge, hollow grind, etcetera, that's more to do with designed task than which is better.  There is a fine balance between edge thickness and design and heat treat, I see a lot of knives with way too thick an edge.

Third is material.  Once you've got the first two then the differences in material can make a very noticeable difference.

That said, there is little point in trying make a knife perform that is made from low carbon steel.  Unless your maybe experimenting with carbonizing it or maybe experimenting with some form of magic super quench.  But those activities are not best suited for beginners.

If you want to learn to make knives, best to leave the RR spikes alone, if your wanting to blacksmith and do decorative ironwork then RR spikes are a source of good quality cheap steel.  Nothing wrong with playing with RR spikes, or even making knives from them, I just don't recommend using them to learn blade smithing on.  That said, my next set of BBQ tools will be made from RR spikes, been wanting to try doing the bull's head.

[jmccustomknives]

My whole hang up on it isn't the making of knives per say, although I'd rather guys not do it they can be a fun and interesting challenge.  No, my hang up is the guys who claim they are "high carbon".  I see them on message boards, facebook and even selling them on ebay making this claim.  One guy selling on facebook claimed his spikes were .60% carbon, he came by that # by doing a spark test....  Ok, and the other day one kid was telling another the spikes were 1084 because his mentor, a farrier, told him they were.  Both those guys most assuredly came by their belief because somewhere in the past that "high carbon" tag got pinned to the spike.  And now they are passing it on to other newbs.

Now if these fellas were to learn how to do comparative testing they would figure out real performance of the materials and their workmanship.  Instead they show what they made, like a proud mama, make their claims and screw up the next newb.

[Lou L]

I've come to grips with the fact that misinformation is the norm in this world.  All humans suffer from the affliction of "confirmation bias", which means that we tend to seek out and readily accept ideas and information that confirms our previously held beliefs and we steadfastly deny (or at least ignore) information that threatens our world view.  So, people who came up learning that RR spikes are a source for decent knife steel will be hard pressed to change those beliefs even in the face of scientific analysis.  You are the newb the way they see it.

Put into the context of politics and religion, confirmation bias becomes a serious social toxin...but, sadly, it's how we are made.  It takes a rare combination of intellect and personality to create an individual who takes on new beliefs and ideas easily and is willing to toss out their old beliefs.  The irony is that society tends to label those people as "wish washy" and they are often considered suspect or unreliable.  Example: Americans, in general, are uncomfortable with the fact that scientists often toss out old models in the face of new discoveries.  

Google up some "confirmation bias" and read a bit.  It is a depressing topic to me but is infinitely interesting.