experiment with wrought

[SReynolds]

Found some lengths of 3/4" rounds wrought.  I had read how popular it is and how folks clamor over it. Especially how it has to be worked hot. 

So in heating I make it yellow.  Ok so far? Then I work it and very soon it delaminates. So in trying it again and again; over and over,  it delaminates. At what color should I stop working it? I don't intend to make anything.  I would like to learn the secret of this as to why folks want it.

I figure I get about 10 seconds to work 3/4" round. Much after ,it literally falls apart. It moves ok but I have no time to work it. Sound about right ? If so , I have to wonder why there were not more blacksmith shops suicides "in the day"

[ThomasPowers]

Start working it just about sparking and stop working it before that particular batch delaminates.  It should be butter soft at working temp and was what smiths used for the first 2000 years or so of the iron age and so if you do any historical work it's most likely what would have been used.  It also forge welds beautifully.

Now if you have a batch that is cold short or hot short or both you will have problems working it.

[Daswulf]

You would have to explain cold short or hot short to me.

 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The Beryllium copper bars I have are hot short....they crumble when struck while they are red hot. Cold short is the opposite.

[Frosty]

Hot short means there is an upper limit to it's working temperature.

Cold short means there is a lower limit to it's working temperature.

Work the other side of the limit and it fails, sometimes it delaminates, splinters like green wood or maybe it'll crumble or maybe crack, etc.

Frosty The Lucky.

[SReynolds]

I will eexperiment further.  Didn't have alot of time then. I guess it moved easily........I was swinging five pounds so I cannot rightly say.  May be my usual 2.5 pound hammer will be a better judge. Don't have too much 3/4" I work with. I may have some truck spring U-bolts I can try. And forge welding will be an interesting experience as well.

How would one go about making it sparkling hot? It's wrought. Will it act similar to mild steel/1018 and throw sparks at white heat?

 

[Gergely]

Yeah it sparks and has a bit of a "liquidy" look at its surface. Try to overheat it at first and then watch how it looks and moves at a tiny bit lower temp. - So you can figure out how hot you want to get it next time. 

Waiting for sparking hot stock is kind of a PITA if you used to heating to orange while working mild steel. At least to me it is. I must always tell myself: patience! it almost can't be overheated so it's worth waiting MORE! But my normal heating timer (the one in my head) goes totally off/confused from heating wrought.

Happy hammering:

Gergely

[Alan Evans]

Hot and cold short I have always associated with cracking (cold) crumbling (hot).

Delaminating is another thing altogether and is invariably (IME) from working wrought iron too cold. It is why you should always take it to welding heat and dap the ends together before doing anything like tapering or spreading or upsetting.

I was told that Hot Short in wrought iron is when a fault or inclusion in one of the strands/fibres causes excess strain and failure to be passed to the adjacent strands across the bar in subsequent working until it falls apart. The inclusion was said to be sulphur.

Alan

[gote]

Copper or tin dissolve in steel and can make it crumbly when hot. Phosphorus can make it brittle when cold. Sulphur can also cause problems. The info that is available today is not very useful for blacksmiths because steel used by the industry is not subjected to the repeated heating and deforming that goes on in a blacksmith's shop. Small amounts of the unwanted stuff moves into the grain borders and decreases cohesion; more or less as oxygen does when the piece is burnt.

Really old Iron was not made with the precision that we have today. Swedish steel got its good name because it was originally made from ores with very little phospohorus and with charcoal with very little sulphur. Many early steelmakers did not have such clean raw materials and thus quality was less predictable. 

[ausfire]

I can understand how you want to know why people want wrought. I think the best that can be said for it is that it has a pleasing texture. But is it worth the anguish of forging it when it's so touchy? My scrap pile has loads of it in all shapes and sizes and I would gladly trade the lot for an equivalent amount of mild. It makes me admire the smiths of old even more, as they were able to work with the stuff. Maybe some folks just like a challenge! 

[SReynolds]

I won't buy any. There are some sections of fence and assorted "scrap" in the shop I work at. They buy all I need and obviously select CF 1018 or HR due to price and what I make. 

Sorta enjoy experimenting with spring steel and this wrought. But my past is filled with low carbon steel and it works well for me.

I will try overheating it . Good idea. Get a feel for what it looks like and characteristics.

[ThomasPowers]

Hot short---too much sulfur in it.  Cold short too much phosphorus.  The old stuff had a LOT more variability to it---the old books discuss testing each load as it comes in to figure out how it works and what countries tend to produce metal with which characteristics.   BTW if heating it to the proper temperature is "overheating"  what is working it at too cold a temperature?   Just like H13 has a forging range that you BETTER pay attention to, Wrought iron has one too.

If you look at some of the ornamental work done with real wrought iron it can be very hard to reproduce it in mild---forge welding less than 1/16" strips for instance.

However if you don't need it you don't need it; no reason to use materials that don't work for what you are doing

[SReynolds]

thus heating it to sparkling white and spitting sparks would be normal heating for wrought?  That would not be overheating it?

[ThomasPowers]

Just a spark or two is about right for some I have worked.  In general the higher refined it is the lower the temp you can work it.  The merchant bar and muck bar need to be real hot!