Senpai Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 One of the age old methods for making hardie tools is to forge the tool to the basic shape and size of the hardie hole and then heat the tool, place it in the hardy hole and hammer it into the hole so that it fits the shape of the hole and has a flange around it - Noting on my new anvlil that this method tends to draw the heat to the anvil as would be expected but is also affecting the heat treating around the hole - Not wanting to hurt the temper of my anvil face I'm looking at alternate methods of fitting the tools - any other ways folks are doing this? I'd sure like to keep this anvil pristine - not sure it's affecting the face but it on one occasion has actually caused a color change around the edges of the hardy hole. Maybe I'm just being wimpy about my new anvil but it sure is nice having really good tools for a change. Could be that I just left the tool in the hole too long or had the heat too high - dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Make a swage with a hole that matches the hardy in the anvil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senpai Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 Not a bad idea - You can beat on it all day and who cares? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 The hardy hole is not that old a feature, ancient anvils didn't have them... I keep my eye open at the scrap yard for "square holes" and have sourced a number of items that I can use for "abusive work" For my large anvils parts off a farm disk work as well as a piece of large scraper blade that has square holes for mounting; I scrounged it for free and plan to make a "hardy table". Stacked and welded track plates have RR spike sized sq holes in them. I do wonder a bit about your issue before as I've been on the sledging team making a specialised hardy tool from a bull dozer valve lifter and didn't discolour the anvil any that I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senpai Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 I like the idea of the 'hardy table' and even a broached out hole on a softer piece of steel would work fine for forming the tools. thinking perhaps even a couple of good sized chunks of plate steel welded together might do the trick - I've got plenty of that Most of the tools I made haven't - I'm hyper sensitive and kinda whiny about all this because the anvil is so new (and expensive) - when I lifted the tool I was making out of the hole and saw blue discoloration on the anvil I kinda freaked. I'm thinking I just left the tool in there just a little too long. It's a 1 inch square hole - big so you have to give a good sized piece of steel some good heat to get it to fit. A Refflinghaus anvil has 1" of hardened steel as it's face - logic says that maybe the very surface edge of the hole was affected - it's not like the effect was deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Well when I found this odd bit of scraper blade---odd in that it was about 2' wide and 4' long instead of the more typical narrow/long blades---with the same large sized sq holes as several of my larger anvils use; for free, how could I turn it down? It's stored in use right now as the baseplate for one of my large postvises, 6.5", as the end of the leg fits in the hole nicely and you can stand on it while using the vise---it's the set I used when I twisted a railroad spike, *cold*, with my larger twisting wrench Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senpai Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 Brilliant - a anvil high table to support a post vice and take the abuse hits from tool making.... This would work good in my small shop. This is worth the effort of haunting some scrap dealers and old farms in the area. Ok - twisting a RR spike cold... wow! must've needed a good sized tubular torque extender... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Not that big a cheater as my larger twisting wrench is *larger*. Of course when we were twisting some 1.5" sq stock hot we had to build a twister. Sure is fun to get together in a group and do some strange smithing.... I need to get my small wrench converted into a twisting wrench as many of my students have trouble twisting 1/4" sq stock hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senpai Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 LOL - Yeah - wishing we had more folks in my area that were of like mind - (or lack of mind) - Bought my son the diesel mechanic a 4 foot stillson wrench for ripping stuck ball joints off the front end of diesel trucks - he bent it - that's ok 'cause he used his 20 lb sledge to uh, 'fix' it. I envisioned someone standing on top of a vice table using said 4 ' crescent hammer with an additional 4' cheater trying to make a RR spike all twisty - 1.5 stock hot is a formidable challenge would've liked to have seen it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I find the notion that "hot" steel might "damage" the face of a quality anvil, ... to be something of a stretch. But then again, ... I'm of an essentially pragmatic mindset, ... rarely troubled by cosmetic, or even esoteric issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Stout well mounted post vise. Stock heated *hot*, top slightly tapered. Custom twisting wrench made from a length of pipe with a a short section of structural sq tubing with 1.5" inside opening welded to the midpoint of the length. Put the stock in the vise, Drop the twister over the top and two smiths grab the ends and walk around the vise, (giggling!). It's the shaft for a smaller/shorter post anvil we were building and I wanted a twist on it. The "anvil" section is a reforged sledge head. While working in the oilpatch I once looked out of my logging unit and saw 4 roughnecks bouncing up and down ontop of 10+ feet of cheater on a large pipe wrench trying to get a mud pump shaft free. Tool pusher wanted to make hole and let the maintenance go on the mud pump and pretty much welded it together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senpai Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 Reminiscent of swabbies heaving to on the anchor windlass - Well done. After my son bent his 4' wrench I offered to inlay some 'stays' so he could get more torque without bending - Instead we opted to make it into a humongous slugging wrench similar to what the mechanics used at the nuke plant - they would use it to knock the nuts free on the reactor cavity drain. (btw really tough task when you are dressed up in anti-c clothes, respirator and sealed in a plastic suit. welded 5/8" by 2' stays to either side and a slugging pad on the end of the wrench - it's a beast. 15 minutes ago, SmoothBore said: I find the notion that "hot" steel might "damage" the face of a quality anvil, ... to be something of a stretch. But then again, ... I'm of an essentially pragmatic mindset, ... rarely troubled by cosmetic, or even esoteric issues. You are probably correct - it'd take a bit to really do any sort of damage to the anvil - the 'blueing' was of some concern but logic says it'd take a great deal of heat to do any tempering at all to the heat treat on that anvil - I'm sure it's fine - I've yet to see any marks at all on the face of that anvil from an errant blow. (yes I miss from time to time) It's a great deal harder than my hardest hammer. Dang thing'll cause a hammer to bounce right back at you. But Still, it' so pretty... (snort) There's always 'another way' - have been getting some good ideas and solutions so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 You probably improved the anvil with the tempering, as that will help lessen the chances of chipping. I have a few different sized hardy shanks, so many times I just put them in my post vise when I need to use one that doesn't fit the anvil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senpai Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 Thanks biggundoctor. That is true. In the case of the hardie hole it may be a good thing to replace hardness with toughness. I'm truly just being a bit picky about something that will be beat on mercilessly its entire life. the face is 59 Rockwell or better. I have yet to put a ding in it. The color change is not unlike finding a ding in the door of your new car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I wouldn't know, never had a new car and folks tend to give my old pickup room in the parking lots; something to be said for a vehicle that says "stay away from me!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senpai Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 LOL! Indeed there is! I think Biggundoctor is probably right about it all - I just need to get over it... I did like the idea of a swage table - I think that has merit - it definitely needs to be able to take hits from the big hammer. You know - cutting a square hole into some 3/8" plate might also be an idea - put that over your hardy hole and drive the tool onto the plate stock - that'd insulate and protect from chipping or tempering the edges of the hardy hole. - thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Folks also hold hardy tools in large postvises; though that's a tad high for my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 No need for appologies I don't think the following has been mentioned on either thread: This is not my idea, I saw it somewhere and it is more than ikely it was here on IFI. A hardy tool does not need to have a square shank of the appropriate size for you hardy hole. A sturdy plate which fits the diagonal dimensions will serve as a shank and can be arc or otherwise welded to the base of the tool without the weldment interferring with the fit. The same tool can also be held in a vice should it be convnient to do so. ( I'm fairly sure someone will be along shortly with a picture of such a tool as the more I reflect on it the more certain I am that I saw it here on IFI ) Hope that's helpfull and comprehensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Can an old hammer make a good hardy? Depends on what the old hammer is made from! Stone, Steeled Wrought iron, medium carbon steel, high carbon, cast iron---over the last 2000+ years and all over the world hammers were made from a lot of different things! Test it and then make the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasent Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Id make a striking plate with the same size hardy. Drill a hole close to the right size then drift it square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I want the hardy to rest on the face of the anvil so the force is transmitted directly, not by wedging. Thus I make sure there is a good horizontal contact surface. I take a piece of square tubing, heat it and hammer it into the hardy hole. Compared to a solid shank, there is less heat to transfer and shorter time to transfer it. There is also less risk of popping off the heel of a London pattern anvil. I mark the tube at anvil face height and cut the tube about 1/16 below that. I now have a well fitting piece with much less work and much less risk to the anvil than a solid shank has. The tube can be welded to a hardy and if the hardy has an ill fitting shank, it can be fitted over the shank. Of course this assumes that you can find a square tube that is a wee bit larger than the hardy hole and that there is a very slight taper in the hole. If I had a London pattern anvil I would weld the tube to a piece of plate and the bottom tool to the plate so the tool is over the sweet spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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