natenaaron Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I was looking at brake drum forges and how to build them when I came across the article about how bad a brake drum is and how you are just setting yourself up for failure by building one. I am sure this article is known to folks here, but if you want to read it here it is. I am also sure it has been discussed but I can't find where it has. Not being familiar with coal forges at all, and thinking someday I would like to make and use a brake drum forge, this article has given me pause. Are his arguments valid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 "They would have the beginner believe that a 'brake drum' forge and a cheap hair dryer are a good substitute for a real blacksmiths bottom blast forge and blower" well, I don't understand what's so unreal about this. most of the "real" blacksmiths back in the day used what they had on hand, and if the only thing they had to make a forge out of was a brake drum, well then, that's what they would use. " They get very little money for anything they produce with a brake drum forge and they produce very little ironwork anyway. Take a look at photos of their work (if they even provide any). The work done with a brake drum forge is always of the simplest design and lowest quality - usually 'S' hooks and railroad spike knives" I also found this article to be very stereo typical. a shop near me uses brake drum forges and trust me, they make $$. now this article did have some good points, but I also disagreed with some. Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJRailRoadTrack Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Some of the folks on IFI would like to argue that brake drum forges are hard to build. I couldn't disagree more, my father and I built one in an hour with saw-zaw, drill and some pliers. They take little effort to make and less to refine. In all the guys in my blacksmith organization we have about 45-50 forges, maybe 5 are not brake drum forges and the guys that a brake drum forge as well as a fabbed fire pot, would usually they rather the brake drum forges. For ME brake drum forges are the best, they're cheap, easy to build, easy to repair/ tweak, and they teach you to use what you have. Yes some forges may burn hotter or maybe cleaner, but for the price I can't beat it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Sounds like the same kind of person who insists that you are required to use $ 150 hammers and that anything less is for wanna-be smiths. It's steeped in an elitist attitude. No, brake drum forges are not terrible. I personally think you can do better (long game) with little extra effort and with time and planning but even a hole in the ground and a pile of dirt can make a serviceable forge...and in India and some other places a LOT of people make a living from that hole in the ground. The problem isn't the brake drum forge itself, it's that there seems to be a push to that as a first/best? option for the "roll your own" crowd rather than one of many possibilities. If this guy wanted to actually give advice rather than rant, he would have said little more than to research options before you build to make sure a brake drum is the appropriate choice for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notownkid Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Everyone has opinions and usually worth the O the word begins with. There are thousands of brake drum/rotor forges in use everyday and more built every day. In my opinion it sure beats the Hole in The Ground this expert is recommending, I didn't look hard but didn't see his name anywhere to take credit for his opinion. these are not all that far off from the rivet forges that have been in use for 125+ years, work similar. I have one I use a traveling forge if I want to do something off site. Someone spent a lot of effort on it as it has a champion crank blower on it nicely connected and nice pipe legs. Not sure what constitutes "Real blacksmiths back in the day" but I've seen a number of forges made from flat rocks which I'm sure came from on sight of the shop. picture below is one of two in the shop back to back, the chimneys were of brick but don't know if original or added later during a rebuild. second picture is of another shop stone bottom that the bricks were added in recent years during a farm reconstruction time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I prefer a good sized brake rotor over a drum, myself. Also my rotor is set into a table to house the extra coal and does act as a bench for tongs at the ready. It Is a hobby for me but I don't see how someone couldn't make money at it if they have it setup right. I sure don't have nearly $300. In my setup. And come to think of it my forge itself has paid for itself already. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to buy a purpose made forge pot for another forge, but mine works great for me so far. I set up an interchangeable deeper rotor for larger work. Only cost was a little bit of time. But sure, nothing wrong with a box of dirt or a $300. Forge pot either. If it works, it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Acualy, tho he over states his case, I am the "folks" EJ refers to. Break drums tend to be to wide across to aid an effecent fire, tho one else the full with ash they tend to self correct, they are difficult to mount to a table, they are to small, or to shallow depending on how you look at it to get a good ball piled up to Coke new fuel and teach welding heat, they are difficult to mount to a table (cut then hole just a fraction to big and they fall threw, fabricating tuyere out of 2" pipe is a bit expensive.... now all that said many smiths start with them, and many still use them, but I have fabricated a few and find it a PITA, trailer drums are marginally better because they have a cast hub so half the tuyere is built, but again with about a table or a rim (think charcoal chimney) they again are to wide and shallow for a good welding heat. Folks have been making them out of brake drums since the model T, and they work ok, some folks have used brake rotors, and rear drum/rotor combos, again they work ok. i do not find EJ's argument that "we have over 50 forges and most of them are..." To be particularly compelling. No offense but why? if you are going to use 2" pipe firings, then get a 6" to 2" bell reducer, a peice of 1/2" square stock bent into a "S" to fit down in the bottom works real well, easy to weld to, but don't weld it to the table as it will break the welds, just take a bit of round and tack it on so it dosnt fall threw, works good. as to cheap, easy and effective, the hole in the ground has worked for some 3 millennia, a modern side blast, like our friends across the pond use is simply a way to raise that hole off the ground, small Iron Age style side blast forges require a 3/4-1"tuyere (schedual 40 pipe is about 7/8" ID) a box about 24"d 8" deep some legs to bring it to anvil hight and some dirt to fill it in, I have seen 30" high flower pots used. 3/4" pipe is a lot less expensive than 2", no metal fabrication tools nessisary, once the forge is built you can use it to make something nicer, say all steel with rivits. Also, small side blasts burn coal, Coke, corn and charcoal with equal effecency, tho bottom blasts do better with wood Still many folks use them, and have sense the depression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, Charles R. Stevens said: the hole in the ground has worked for some 3 millennia just wait another 3 millennia and people will be saying the same thing about the brake drum forge. Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Wow my brake drum forge was my favorite billet welder for pattern welded knives for years. There is a problem if you get a brake drum not sized for your work---many people go for one too deep. (I had a student who used a semi drum and ended up abandoning it when he moved as useless...) But then saying that some are terrible is different from saying all are terrible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Oh, I am not making that claim, I just think they are more trouble to build than they are worth. Heck, your one of the examples of an exelent smith that has one in his envantory (and still uses it) I point out after I have bad mouthed them, lol they do have their virtues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 As always the devil is in the details! I built it as a working proof that you didn't need to spend a ton of money to start smithing. The complete forge/blower/tools/anvil ran under US$25 and the fanciest tool it required was a 1/4" drill---no welder! Of course I can scrounge fairly well; so a lot of it was free. A fun aspect was that I used a ribbed radiator hose from the blower to the tue piping and when I adjusted the blower speed it would start to sing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donniev Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Mine took an hour to build with a welder, and it works great as a table as well to hold tongs, material, and excess coal piled around the fire to coke up Made it out of steel plate that had been demo'd out at a job site, it was free. What I have works, why would I go searching for a $100+ forge? It's only purpose is to warm up steel, a job its done well so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJRailRoadTrack Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 @Charles R. Stevens Where I live i can make a brake drum forge for about 25 dollars(barrel, tuyer, and bathroom fan) I always forget that in other places all of that stuff is more expensive. I apologize, so fro me, my circumstances, I.E. moneys being the issue, a brake drum forge is batter for ME, I was quick to think that if it's better for that it's better for everyone. I will think next tie I say something that may offend someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 29 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: But then saying that some are terrible is different from saying all are terrible... yes, yes, yes, I completely agree. one of my dads co workers was starting to get into blacksmithing, and he is all about go big or go home, and so he said that he was going to make one out of a semi truck brake drum. because bigger is all ways better? right? well I had to crush his dreams. Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I'm pretty thick skinned, and I will argue with a fence post over my version of the "truth" lol. Every forge design has it's plus and minuses. Every you tube build a forge vidio, instructable and magazine article shows a bottom blast, usualy brake drum forge. It's just my opinion that there are other ways to go that may be more practical for a beginning smith with shallow pockets and no access to metal working tools (other than the forge he cobles to gether, the "anvil" he scrounges up and the hammer he found). I would really like to see us promote ideas that can be implemented by the baginers for little or no cost where ever they are. Be it a brake drum, oil drum, wood crib or what ever. Glenn started this with his "55 forge" series I think their are 4 verrients? I can make one out of a simi drum, lol no diferent than a sink... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Wow, this is a LOT of hullabaloo about a "Beautifuliron" article. The site features some really nice iron work for sale and almost every "article" I've read on the site, usually because I was referred to it by someone wanting my opinion. has been marketing puffery. Of course a method THEY don't use is inferior who can question that? Do you think he could've picked a worse example of a brake drum forge to illustrate his points? Hmmmmm? Deep narrow drum, No table, narrow spindly legs, too low, screw on pipe cap for an ash dump, I didn't look at the air grate but I bet it's as poor a functioning one as he could imagine. Betcha it wouldn't take me 20 minutes to figure it out, get it cooking and start doing good work in it. This is a perfect example of why I disregard Beautifuliron references almost out of hand. Bottom blast, side blast, hill forge, chimney draw blast (don't know what to call that one) don't really matter. Wait! I forgot induction and all the rest. It's NOT the forge that does the work anymore than the hammer. With a little time and the right kind (safe in a hot fire) rocks I can make a stone fireplace you can cook dinner on while the V shaped back draws the smoke up and out of your eyes and do serious heating near the middle. No fire pot, no table, no blower, no blow pipe, no special fuels, heck not even a hole. If you blow air THROUGH a fire it WILL get HOT regardless of the fuel or container. Some are easy, some better suited to conditions but if you know what you're doing it doesn't really matter. Sure a tool suited to a specific job in the hands of someone with high skills will yield better results but someone well skilled can use a rock, a hammer stone and camel dung with a mud tuyere and critter stomach or shopping bag bellows and produce high quality. Frankly that's where I'd like to drop Mr. opinionated from Beautifuliron, a 3rd. world mudhole or scorched desert plain where he got to eat depending on who was willing to swap food for his work. I'd just love to see him take a double handful of scrap metal a piece of a fender some who knows what bar, maybe a couple broken bolts, etc. and make a working bush knife that will survive hacking brush, choppinng wood, butcher an antelope, slice bread and maybe defend against brigands or a lion. Actions talk, BS walks. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 My student thought bigger would be better when he built a semi drum forge with no slots on the sides. I pointed out to him that he couldn't reach the hot spot with anything but the end of a workpiece. He raised the effective bottom up by filling it with dirt making a heavy forge even heavier. The he used a chromed shower drain as the grate; unfortunately is was chromed brass and overheated...he ended up with something somewhat usable but when he moved he left it and using his learning experiences to build a better on. He's a full time smith/knifemaker and teaching blacksmithing these days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natenaaron Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 If I am reading right the article makes some good points but in the end is mostly hot air. 1 hour ago, Charles R. Stevens said: as to cheap, easy and effective, the hole in the ground has worked for some 3 millennia, a modern side blast, like our friends across the pond use is simply a way to raise that hole off the ground, small Iron Age style side blast forges require a 3/4-1"tuyere (schedual 40 pipe is about 7/8" ID) a box about 24"d 8" deep some legs to bring it to anvil hight and some dirt to fill it in, I have seen 30" high flower pots used. 3/4" pipe is a lot less expensive than 2", no metal fabrication tools nessisary, once the forge is built you can use it to make something nicer, say all steel with rivits. Also, small side blasts burn coal, Coke, corn and charcoal with equal effecency, tho bottom blasts do better with wood Still many folks use them, and have sense the depression. Should that be 24 inches across and 8 inches deep or 24 inches deep filled then a hole 8 inches deep put in? Got lost on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, natenaaron said: If I am reading right the article makes some good points but in the end is mostly hot air. Should that be 24 inches across and 8 inches deep or 24 inches deep filled then a hole 8 inches deep put in? Got lost on that one. I just realized the article might be right after all! Isn't the point of a forge HOT air? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 8" deep box, aproximently 24" acrossz filled with dirt or ash and clinker, sand and ash etc.,with a bowl dug down some 6" deap and 6-8" across, the tuyere is some 3" off the bottom of the hole (you want a min of 3" from the bottom to the bottom ends of they hole in the tuyere). Now in defense of Beutifile Iron's article, he goes on to provide pretty good information on designing and building bottom blast forges, sans brake drum fire pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natenaaron Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 18 minutes ago, Charles R. Stevens said: 8" deep box, aproximently 24" acrossz filled with dirt or ash and clinker, sand and ash etc.,with a bowl dug down some 6" deap and 6-8" across, the tuyere is some 3" off the bottom of the hole (you want a min of 3" from the bottom to the bottom ends of they hole in the tuyere). Is there some place I can read about these. Looking for a detailed description. I am intrigued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I would rather get someone STARTED in blacksmithing than tell them it takes $XX.xx amount of money in order to buy into the program. Once you have a fire you can start learning, things like fire management, how to move hot metal, etc. Dig a hole in the ground is a great idea but no one ever says what size and shape hole. If your back and bones hurt from stooping over or squatting, then raise the height of the hole to table high. Same dirt, same design, just easier to use for those of us not used to working on or at the ground level. Look closely at a masonry forge, really nothing more than a hole in the ground at a convenient height. I have used brake drums, brake rotors, and many other shapes to hold a fire. I even tried a metal car rim, then started modifying it with clay to get a better shape to the fire. At one point I used a clay flower pot surrounded by clay for support, as a forge. I developed the 55 Forge as the steel drums are available in many 3rd world countries. The 55 Forge then went through modifications and refinements. The smallest forge I built, that worked well, and I used was 4 inches in diameter and about 4 inches deep, the largest was 24 inches in diameter and maybe 16-18 inches deep. All the forges work, some better than others. You can have more than one forge, and you can build a forge to do a specific job when a specific type, style fire, and amount of heat that is needed. Beginners do not start by building a double gate across a 2 lane driveway. They start small and as they gain experience, expand and improve their tools and tooling. If you were to put a beginner in a fully equipped blacksmith shop he could only produce to his level of skill and expertise. If you put a master blacksmith in a 3rd world country with minimal tools and tooling, he will watch the native blacksmith at work and then the master will produce to his level of skill and expertise. The brake drum and other simple, cheap forges, have started many people down the road of blacksmithing. Many of those folks only required a minimal fire in making or repairing things, while others went on to become working blacksmiths and support their business and family with the things they made. You do not become a blacksmith after the first 4 hours, or 4 days of playing in a fire. You MUST build up experience, skill, and expertise. But to start, you MUST have a fire to play in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Well said Glenn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 There are a handful of posts concerning side blast forges, If I remember right Everthing Mac's side blast post has some of the best information, including an exert from an old manual concerning tuyere size and fire depth that Glenn posted and an illustration of a side blast cut away from the side posted by another member. I know I have described setting up a side blast for charcoal more than once, as they are a bit selective as to best set up. But I am happy to go threw it all again, first a disclaimer, In my searching IFI has the most information, tho other sources helped as well as brain picking other members, especially across the pond, this did not leave me a compleat picture (even tho I had working examples with mesured drawings to look at) so I had to experiment. My first box of dirt was an experimental rig, the mark II was posted here, as will the mark II, IV etc. First let's start from an illustration I lo her from another member. Now this is a water coolled tuyere, but it isn't neck wary for a basic side blast. I will describe a charcoal forge, as I think it is the most versatile and fuel effecent. It will happily burn coke, coal, corn and charcoal (not so raw wood friendly tho). Now first their are 3 basic designs to work with, one wall, two wall or no wall. So the civil war era traveling forge, and navy portable forge that David Einhorn has posted as well as the Viking forge with a bellows stone are one wall forges, African and Asian forge's, such as the Japanese sword forges are examples of two wall forges (tho the later they have multiple tuyere) then we have the no wall forges, such as the traditinal British forges (the bosh and side draft hood make it look like they have a wall, but as the fire isn't built against the bosh or back wall of the hood they are not) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Other than the square of the box, the three are essentially the same. First, we need a way to contain the fire, a wooden box will work, even a plastic bucket (same probblem of being to small to properly keep the fuel from falling on the ground as a brake drum) 24" is a practical minimum, tho 30" is really nice, with a wooden box it needs to be a bit deeper, say 2", so I would use a box made about 7" deep (1x8 or 2x8 or two 1x4 etc.) or an oil drum cut off 7" (a bit of thaught and you can leave the top and most of one half to make a hood and wind block) a wash tub works as well, but one might have to use more fill if it is more than 7" tall. Any way, with wood we need 2" to protect the bottom and sides from heat, I like to use soothing solid, red or hard fire brick is nice, as it isn't effected by the heat (cement spalds) and it hard enugh to stop you from digging to close to the wood when remodeling the fire bowl. So now we have the first 2", we need 1" bellow the opening in the tuyere, for slag to collect (if we are using coal or burn up a peice of steel...) one might want to use a 3/4 floor flange as it will keep the slag from getting under the tuyere. Now I get a 12" 3/4" schedual 40 nipple for a 24" box, a 3/4" T (if using an electric blower) and a 3/4" ball valve. Buy cutting 3" off one end of the black pipe I now have all my parts to fit an electric bed pump from Walmart. Above the tuyere (wich is about 7/8" ID, smack between the 3/4-1" historical examples) setting 2" below the table. I fill the box with dirt and dig out a bowl, with the tuyere just touching the side about 4" deap and 6" across. I find coal would like just a bit more depth, but works just fine. Note that clay and coal slag stick to gether like glue, so only use clay if you only use charcoal, if you use a steel box of some thickness the bottom 2" can be omitted, and if you only use charcoal or corn you can omit the 1" under the tuyere. A one wall forge has a wall or bellows stone as the back of the fire bowl, this can be clay or adobe (no coal) steel, soap stone or other fire resistant stone. All other measurements remain the same, the two wall forge is the same but has another wall. So you acces the fire from only two sides. A hammer, a pallet and a saw can see you into a forge pretty easily, but if you want to go "old school" and dig a hole, dig two, one to stand in, and one for the fire, squaring sucks for westerners... Now this gives you a fire ball that will heat a 6" long peice of stock to forging temp, and a couple of inches to welding heat, but as we can only work about 6" by hand befor we lose the heat any way... nkw if you need a longer fire, dig out a trench, get two elbows, a T and a couple of nipples and you can have a foot long hot spot, ad a couple of 45's and you can have a 8" fire ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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