Frosty Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 I didn't see a 2 burner version, I was commenting on the forge pictured above. Helpful? . . . Helpful? . . . Okay, it will be a safe place to burn a mosquito coil when you're propping the door open. Frosty The Lucky. I didn't see a 2 burner version, I was commenting on the forge pictured above. Helpful? . . . Helpful? . . . Okay, it will be a safe place to burn a mosquito coil while it's propping the door open. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted April 25 Author Share Posted April 25 Okay, it does not begin to compare with a single burner Mister Volcano forge, which costs the same price; that is quite true. On the other hand, how much longer will the better forge continue to be offered? They have already taken their burners off the market. If we scoff at every other low cost forge, maybe there will be even fewer choices down the road? I look at that forge, and see how people who are reluctant till build their own forge can improve it, with little effort. Is it very small? Yes; on the other hand, people build coffee-can forges, and the even tinier two-brick forges, all the time, to build, repair, and change hand tools, and jewelry tools too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted April 25 Author Share Posted April 25 6 hours ago, Frosty said: I'd rather build a charcoal fire in the old BBQ. As the practical choice, I must agree. However, I don't see many people, who aren't familiar with blacksmithing choosing it over a clean burning gas forge, these days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 I can't argue. I'm losing track of what point we're on at any given moment and re-reading half a dozen posts is making my headache worse. I'll check back in in a couple days, we've run into Anchorage and back twice so far this week on top of other stuff and I'm shot. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted April 26 Author Share Posted April 26 When we lose track, a good joke is always appropriate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 What did the Math book say to the English book? ”I’ve got problems.” Oh wait, you said good joke. Apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Uh HUH and the English book replied, "Go figure." That doesn't add up to a good joke either does it. Sorry. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted April 26 Author Share Posted April 26 Perhaps, you two should cut back on the chilly consumption. Now all three of us have passed gas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted April 28 Author Share Posted April 28 Full size "commercial" forges have change very little in recent years. Chili Forge is the most recent design, and it is more than twenty years old. However, small economical gas forges now flood the market. Most of them are a mixed blessing. On the plus side, they can be easily improved, to become a worthwhile tool; this provides a third choice between building a gas forge from scratch, and paying several hundred dollars, just to find out if someone wants to forge steel. On the down side is the need to have a clue about gas forge design; otherwise "the fool and his money are soon parted." All of these forges need some additional features added, and most of them would be greatly improved with at least, a change in burner details, or at worst, a different burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 Yeah, it's pretty typical of a product type becoming popular enough small manufacturers get on the wagon. Each has to market their own forge for less $ or more special features than the others. Guess where we'll see where commercial forge evolution takes us. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted April 28 Author Share Posted April 28 I have seen lots of innovation from enthusiasts on this forum, and on previous forums (now defunct). One manufacturer from those other forums came up with oval forges, and began selling them over two decades back. The other manufacturer consulted me on forge burner design, and changed from selling fan-blown burners to Chili Forges present naturally aspirated tube burners. Both of their forge series cost several hundred dollars. I don't think the band wagon jumpers do any deep thinking, before 'innovating.' It looks more like "well, this looks shiny; it'll sell real good." The only exception to this trend is Mister Volcano forges; it is actually worth more than the customer has to shell out for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 One of the brothers introduced Mr. Volcano on Iforge. I wonder if he's still lurking. Ever do a web search for a "Frosty T burner"? Last I did there must've been 20+ guys selling them and not a one understood how they work. Every stinking one had a too small mig tip extended into the mixing tube making really FAST burners. Not that I'm complaining I put it in the public domain on purpose so folk could make an effective burner for not much $ or shop skill. It does gripe me to see MY NAME on poorly made versions. The plans are commonly available with no strings attached the least they could do is follow them! Oh well at least I have positive confirmation you don't have to know what you're doing to make a burner that works. Maybe not top of its potential but one that'll heat steel. Careful what you wish for eh? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 After the book was published, I got regular complaints on the casting group forum I visited that, "I built your burner just like you said, and it didn't work very well." I offered six times to fix their burners for free, if they sent them with return postage. Not one of them followed my instructions! So, when the seventh guy wrote the same complaint on my favorite forum, I changed the offer. I said he could have the same deal as the first six, but that I would describe every single thing he did wrong in loving detail on the forum, with photos, before I fixed his burner. He said no thanks. I got no more complaints after that The problem is that everyone has a "better idea" then the path you lay out; this is just fine, if they "have a clue." Alas, that is a mighty big if. I like innovation; where would we be without it? The problem is getting people to take a good look, before they jump into things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florida Man Metals Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 I started reading some of this very long thread the last few days and still have much to read on it. I'm one of the people that just wanted to start melting metal and get out there. Just reading some of the exchanges between Mike and Jerry I can tell you it would take me quite awhile to get a grasp on making an adequate burner. Not a good burner but, an adequate burner would be all I could hope for. I didn't want to try and build one only for it not to work well and need constant fiddling. Although that is how I generally learn. A LOT OF TRIAL AND ERROR. The prices on pipe being rather expensive these days. I bought this one a couple of years ago for $85 dollars and came with a real regulator. It has worked well for me. It was all made in India. I would consider this the better bargain for the money for me. Kind of feels like cheating now. Like you gents mentioned I'm not sure that even if I did build my own burner that I would truly understand why I was doing what. Just following the directions would be all I could hope to accomplish. Like you folks said a good burner is one that works for you. This one works for me. I am curious as to what the actual experts think about this burner. It is sold on Amazon and says Simond Store on it. You folks have a much greater understanding of what the necessary criteria is for something to be called a good burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 Goodness, lighten up on yourself man! Propane burners aren't magic or some kind of super science they operate on some of the most basic principles there are, the same thing that causes a wind behind a truck to go the same direction as the truck until something changes it's direction. If your burner does what you need and want it to then it's a good burner. Looking at the picture I'd set it up a little differently I much prefer to have the 1/4 turn shut off valve at the regulator than at the burner. That way if you need to turn it off in an emergency you are standing as far away from the burning device as hose length lets you. It also depressurized the hose when it's off. I really prefer to not have any more of the fuel circuit pressurized than necessary when it's not in use. Enough of that, blather. Show us a pic or two of YOUR burner burning if you want to know what we think of it. Do you know where it was made? I have to cut this off for now it's bed time and I have a couple things to do before I can lay me down. Deb and I took a 40 mile drive out to Sheep Creek Lodge for dinner on a perfect spring day so I'm kind of pooped and will make more sense tomorrow after I've had my coffee and a nibble. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florida Man Metals Posted Monday at 02:17 PM Share Posted Monday at 02:17 PM Tried to take some pictures of the burner but found it hard to capture well in the full sunlight and due to my design. The only decent photo I could get was it operating outside of the furnace, so no back pressure. Hard to get a photo thru the exhaust port. It was running for about 10 minutes in this photo. The burner was made in India. My furnace is a version of a Top Hat Raku Kiln. I built the entire thing in an old stainless steel grill body. It is all at a working height of around my belly button. Once the metal is molten I remove the furnace (top hat) and set it out of the way on a nice piece of steel. This allows for easy access to the crucible. Eliminates a lot of the unneccesary moving around of the crucible. Just pick up the crucible once, and pour it into the mold in one simple movement. The last two pictures I added are pretty much cold just to illustrate how everything works together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted Monday at 05:02 PM Author Share Posted Monday at 05:02 PM You're right, that the light level makes looking for secondary and/or tertiary flames nearly impossible. However the primary flame looks good enough that I would not expect to see much secondary flame, anyway. As to the burner assembly; you more than got your money's worth Could the burner be improved? Yes; do you really need to? NO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florida Man Metals Posted Monday at 05:26 PM Share Posted Monday at 05:26 PM I appreciate the input Mickey. I wanted to share a store bought burner that was good enough and at a decent price for begginers. I felt this qualified as an option. I have no problems melting copper with this burner and haven't had any problems with it. It also came with a second gas orifice and a tool to replace it. Nothing compares to making your own burner thou. *Sorry I meant Mikey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted Monday at 06:04 PM Share Posted Monday at 06:04 PM I searched Amazon for Simone Store and found a couple of blacksmith forges with the sand burner design. Any chance you can get pictures in lower light? Also, a picture down the intake so we can see what they are doing with the orifice. Looks like a cross tube design from the outside. Any specific reason you aimed the burner for direct impingement on the crucible as opposed to the swirl around it that most use/recommend? Is the top hat solid refectory? How is it attached to the wire skin? I was plotting something similar with my next furnace but I like your idea better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted Monday at 06:13 PM Share Posted Monday at 06:13 PM Ditto Mike about not being able to see the flame for the light, maybe take a pic in the evening? Does the burner actually tilt up at the angle it appears to? With the type of melter you're using the crucible should be stable enough to use a smaller plinth and aim the burner under it. As it is the flame is directed in an upwards swirl and you want to keep the flame IN the melter as long as possible to transfer energy where you want it. Yes? That is my favorite type of small scale melter, I hate lifting the crucible out of a flaming pit, too much chance of tipping or dropping it while you're getting BBQed by the radiant heat. All that said if it's been working all this time (Since you could get a decent burner for $85) I call it a good effective burner. How about this for you. While you're melting and casting with your current set up how about building a burner? Just because it is home built doesn't mean a Mikey or T is a "better" burner, they're just relatively cheap and you get to add to your acquired skills list. Hmmm? I'll bet I know where you can get a hand getting them right and tuned. You have NO IDEA how hard it's going to be for me to not refer people to . . . "Mickey." Thank you for that. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florida Man Metals Posted Monday at 07:04 PM Share Posted Monday at 07:04 PM Good eye Frosty. I agree with your assement. Initially when I placed the burner through the grill body I tried using an existing hole vs cutting my own. So yes the burner is at an angle like you said. Me and my darn short cuts. That is why I put such a large plinth in it to compensate. The way the burner hits the plinth seems to give it sufficient swirl and hang time in the furnace. At some point I will reposition the burner thou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted Monday at 07:57 PM Author Share Posted Monday at 07:57 PM Mikey or Micky; it's all the same to me. Let confusion rain, if it will What Florida Man gained for his $85 was a burner, gas hose, and adjustable pressure regulator. Conservatively figuring, only about $50 of this price was for a stainless steel burner of better than average design. So, this is actually a very good price for a gas burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florida Man Metals Posted Monday at 08:01 PM Share Posted Monday at 08:01 PM Frakenburner here is a photo down through the burner so you can see the orifice if you zoom in. The only reason I have direct impingement aimed at my plinth is because I was trying to use an existing hole in the grill body for my burner placement. No other reason. The tophat is two layers of one inch ceramic fiber blanket with ITC 100 for the flame face. I didn't attach it in any way. If you put the top in first and then the sides they will hold up the top once you rigidize the blanket. *Frankenburner * man I suck with names today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florida Man Metals Posted Monday at 08:57 PM Share Posted Monday at 08:57 PM Frankenburner, did you search Simond Store or Simone store? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted Monday at 09:52 PM Share Posted Monday at 09:52 PM I did a search for Simond Store burners and found them on Amazon for $74 and change. Right below them on the page was a stainless steel T burner for $38 and change. I might have to buy one, that's less than what I spend on materials and we have Amazon Prime so we don't pay shipping. It'd be as much to check how they got an apparently good looking flame the ratios aren't what they should be. Like the ones I used are the only ones out there. When I started on the T and got the first one right all I knew was what a good oxy acet torch flame looked like and tinkered till I got fuel air close. I'm the first to admit there are many times more about fuel air burners I don't know than I do and I'm a big use what works guy and their T burner looks good from here. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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