Buffalo Forge restoration

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I used Kroil all the time and it's the best commercial penetrating oil I have found. I also use the 50/50 mix of DexronII ATF and Acetone which is just as good as Kroil and a lot cheaper.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails. ~ Semper Paratus

[Shainarue]

The 50% Dextron II ATF and 50% acetone mix is what I've been using. 

Wire brush, spray, let it soak while I forge. Then when I'm putting stuff up, I try with a wrench, hit it a few times with a rubber mallet, try again, then spray the mix again and try again the next day. Been doing that for 10 days. 

Haven't tried heat. I'll give that a go next. What happens if there's still residual atf/acetone mix in there when I heat? 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

It just burns off not a bad thing unless there is a lot of the mixture then it flames up but doesn't burn long most of the acetone will evaporate.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails. ~ Semper Paratus

[arkie]

The primary reason for heating during a rust removal process is that the expansion/contraction helps break the iron/rust bond.

[Frosty]

Tap the screws gently with a steel hammer to provide some shock, a rubber mallet won't break the rust bond. Or are you talking about hitting the wrench with the mallet? 

I would NOT  do that, it'd be too easy to twist a bolt off.

If the bolts are warm when you apply the acetone ATF mix capillarity action is greatly increased. Another good trick is to wrap a rag around the rusted piece and saturate it with the ATF Acetone mixture, it will hold the mix on the bolts a lot longer, doing good.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shainarue]

I was using the rubber mallet on the wrench - not that it mattered. The wrench wouldn't hold on to the nut anyway. I also used the rubber mallet to kind of just bang around on the seal/ears of the housing to see if it would jar something loose enough to help. I've also whacked on it a bit with a piece of 2x4, lol. I honestly don't care if I break the bolts or the nuts. I figure the worst ones will need replaced anyway and I'm not trying to keep this a "100% true to all original parts" restoration. I already knew I'd have to replace the original wrought iron legs with new steel pipe. And there are a few parts I already know I'll need to recreate or purchase. I have no qualms with replacing the bolts & nuts on the blower housing.

That said, I'm also trying not to cause any stress on the ears of the blower housing where the bolts go through - because if those break off, I don't know that I'd be able to repair it without just recasting (and I've never casted, lol).

I haven't worked on it at all since I last posted here, so I haven't tried heat yet. But if heat doesn't work, then I'll go with Frosty's suggestion to soak a rag in the ATF Acetone mixture and try that. I'll post an update when I have one.

[Frosty]

Stripping the wrench facets off nuts is common trying to break them loose brute fashion. Taking a mallet to the wrench is a definitive Brute force method right up there with getting a bigger cheater. Tapping the bolt or better head end with a hard hammer causes shock waves in the bolt shank. The shock travels at a different speed through the bolt than it does through rust so it crushes the rust. The penetrant will help lubricate the joint and improve freeing it up.

The real downside to brute forcing frozen nuts is the chance of breaking the bolt flanges, even loosening them puts a lot of stress on the flange. You'll have to do some brazing if you break a flange off.

How much do you have in your tool budget? I expect you are using open end wrenches and they slip, stripping the wrench facets off the nuts. Yes? If you don't have box end wrenches or there isn't room to slip them over the nuts you need "fuel line" wrenches, they are deeper meaning more contact with the nuts and have a small opening so there are two more contact faces on the nut. (image below) Few things deform or strip off like the flare nuts on a fuel or brake line and these are designed to keep really fragile "nuts" in tact. They're really common in pawn and second hand shops if you don't do mech yard saling. 

Another alternative is to buy an electric impact wrench, a 3/8" drive is more than enough brute-ness for your current purposes and you'll want to turn it down power wise but they're designed for breaking frozen juts and bolts. One way or the other. I got my 3/8" and 1/2" pneumatic impact wrenches and my electrics in pawn shops. Not great deals but they got better when I rolled my eyes at the marked price and lack of willingness to bargain, turned my back and headed for the door leaving the impacts on the counter.

If they're small enough nuts you can use an impact drill like you use to drive long screws. 

Best of luck, everybody needs it breaking frozen threads.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shainarue]

I do have some fuel line wrenches like you pictured. Came in a Dremel tool bag I bought at an auction. They didn't fit the nuts though. 

I also have an electric impact wrench. It was actually one of the first things I tried. The socket doesn't have room to fit onto the nut due to the outward curve of the fan housing. 

I've got about 20 minutes before I need to run out for an appointment. I'm gonna go try a few taps with the hammer just for good measure. 

[swedefiddle]

Heat the nut, let it cool a couple times. The heat will break the rust bond, it you loosen the nut when it is red hot, it MAY take the threads with it. Work slow, heat expands the nut, move it a bit when it is hot, let it cool. Using any kind of Penetrating Oil will burn off when heated. Be Patient, my little one. Work slow, is the fastest. NEVER USE AN EZE-OUT!! It will expand and make it tighter!!

The picture above is a 'Flare Wrench' it is used for brake lines or similar. High quality manufacture is OK, less expensive will buy you failure!!

[Frosty]

Don't forget a drop of oil as it cools. Being warm increases capillary action and will draw oil into the frozen threads. Be gentle, be persistent. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

As a last resort you can use a nut splitter. Of course that makes the nut useless so plan on replacements. A lot of Auto Zone stores have them to loan out.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails. ~ Semper Paratus

[Shainarue]

Got them all out tonight! Freed up two before my appointment and the other 3 after. Tap tap tap, heat, cool, tap tap tap, try. Repeat.  Finally got a look at what the inside had in store. I'll need to fabricate a few fan blades. Otherwise there's not much to it since basically the gears are on the outside in the form of those humongous wheels, lol 

Next up, the tightening pegs that hold the crank wheels in place. Tapped and sprayed them tonight before I packed up for the evening. Tomorrow I'll give them a try with the wrench and move straight to heat if they don't budge. They don't look like they have as much build up though so fingers crossed. 

I know, slow is fast. But my wife's patience is running out regarding the "pile of junk taking up almost all the patio". She exaggerates. It's only taking up a quarter of the patio. But I promised I'd have it moved off as soon as I got it apart. 

 

[PNW_Sparky]

Try submerging the rusted fastener in evaporust if able to do so. I have found that it breaks down some of the rust in the threads and really helps removing stuck nuts and bolts. The problem is that sometimes you have to get creative on what type of container to use on large or awkward parts.

Shainarue, your forge pan looks very similar to mine that I just got done restoring. What model number is yours?

BTW I highly recommend POR15's high temp paint. I had the first fire in this thing recently and it held up great. I even painted the inside of the fire pot just as an experiment. Surprisingly it did not burn off.

[Frosty]

Hmmm, sounds like the next project is extending the patio. A person has to have room to work. 

You might have or be able to get a container large enough to soak the rest. If not you know the drill now.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Glenn]

Containers can be anything from buckets, to garbage contains, to storage containers, to large animal watering containers.  Just needs to hold water and derusting solution, and deep enough to cover the parts.  You can cover the left half, derust, and then insert the right half for derusting.  Many of the containers will have a plastic bag to fit them, which saves on clean up when the container is finished being used.

For odd shaped or size parts, you can build a wooden container and line it with sheet plastic.

It is sometimes necessary to cover the container to keep animals from taking getting a drink or taking bath.

[Shainarue]

I have last season's baby pool to use for the derusting process. I am going to use electrolysis. Pool just needs a few patches and it's ready. 

PNW_Sparky, it's model 0 (zero) from the late 1800s. I've been following your thread as well and already had the POR15 paint bookmarked. 

Though I'm kinda leaning toward BLO. Just depends on what it looks like after rust removal. 

I shiny metal, it will get painted. If dark metal, then blo

[PNW_Sparky]

The only caution I would have when using the POR15 high temp paint is to follow the instructions exactly as they are written. You should use their metal etch product and cure the paint as per the instructions before exposing the parts to full temp. I used a combination of an outdoor wood stove, a Mr Buddy heater, and a campfire, to cure the various pieces which if I recall correctly was 2 to 300° for an hour.

For what it's worth, I started with electrolysis, because that's how I restore my cast iron pans too. But soon I realized that my parts were so rusted it was going to take forever. 

 

[Glenn]

Use multiple electrodes as electrolysis is line of sight for the derusting process.

[Shainarue]

Yup, I planned on having many electrodes and also planned on skimming the water of sludge & cleaning the electrodes daily. I also read in a research article (in regards to using electrolysis for restoring artifacts) to file away the rust in at least two areas to give the reaction somewhere to begin more easily. One where the clip attaches and one on the opposite end. So I'll be doing that on each piece I put in as well. I do have a power source that will not auto-shutoff. Just need to get it all hooked up & set up. But I have a few other forges to work on before I start that. I'm also still pondering where I can put the baby pool where it's not more of an eyesore than the existing pile of rusty forge parts. Maybe I'll just surround the perimeter with beautiful potted plants, lol

Oh - serious question I hadn't thought of until just now - anyone know if mosquitos will still be able to breed in this electrolysis bath? Because if so, then I need to get some mosquito netting to cover the pool.

[Frosty]

How quickly electrolysis works depends on a few factors, the main ones are amperage the other is electrolyte. If you use dilute phosphoric acid as the electrolyte it will go very quickly. In fact you don't need the electric current, phosphoric acid will revert rust to iron on it's own. See "Naval Jelly," "Ospho", and other commercial de-rusting products.

My first experiment was with Naval Jelly diluted 1:2 with clean fresh water and in a bit over 24 hours turned an unrecognizable squarish block of book page rust flakes into a nice little set hammer logo intact and readable. Attaching electrodes from my old 12v battery charger set on trickle using a 15% phosphoric acid electrolyte converts rust-ness to clean iron/steel.

Two words of caution wear PPR religiously when dealing with acid, phosphoric acid is especially dangerous over concrete. If I let my jug of 99.9% spill on a concrete floor it WILL react explosively. The other is operational, disassemble what you're de-rusting electrolysis tends to diffusion weld parts together. 

I used plastic totes outdoors and sealed them with duct tape for GP. 

If you allow parts to air dry before you neutralize and rinse you won't have to paint them black, though it'll need a coat of semi-gloss clear if you don't like flat black. (Parkerized)

A more common electrolyte won't bother mosquitos so netting is a good idea. For things like your slack tub up to the half acre pond out back a little garlic oil on the surface works a treat to both prevent mosquitoes from laying eggs or larvae growing to maturity. Kills em dead, so does motor oil but garlic oil is quickly biodegradable and won't bother critters drinking or fish. Mosquitoes will still land on the water so fish won't go hungry, the pond just won't be a skeeter nursery.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shainarue]

Good tip on the garlic oil. I'll keep that in mind when I start using a bigger slack tub. I currently just empty after each session bit it's just a standard galvanized bucket. Maybe use a gallon of water each time. 

I didn't like all that was required safety wise for the acid so I'm going with a standard pH plus bath even though it will take considerably longer. 

Naval jelly was also on my list if for whatever reason the electrolysis didn't work out. I was worried it might take iron with it, and knew I needed to preserve the gear teeth as close as possible. It's that a legit concern? Because if that's not a concern with the jelly, I might just save myself some time and use that. 

[Frosty]

Naval Jelly works as an electrolyte, it is 30% phosphoric acid with a jelling agent and surfacant. It was on your list because it works, the ads don't lie, exaggerate a BIT maybe but it does what they claim. You still want to wear rubber gloves and safety glasses, if you get it on you rinse immediately. It makes good primer for rusty steel, you can paint over it.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Hefty]

Another cheap and readily available source of phosphoric acid is the no-rinse, food grade, homebrew sanitiser "Starsan". There are some other similar named, similar formula brands too. It comes as a concentrate that you dilute with water. One bottle lasts for years. I haven't used it for rust-removal yet myself, but when I noticed a while back that one of the active ingredients is phosphoric acid, I did some research and, yes, people do use it for rust-removal.

Cheers,

Jono.

[Dave51B]

 There are some good threads on electrolysis on this sight. A 100 gal. none metal water tank for livestock works a treat for me. I use A&H super washing soda for electrolyte. I have "cooked" complete , disassembled, antique tractors for restoration. If ya have any questions, hit me up.....           Life is Good          Dave

[Shainarue]

With electrolysis - it leaves the black outer crust - the black oxide. Do I want to keep that or should I wire brush to get it off? 

My gut tells me to keep it but I keep seeing other people brushing it off to get the bare metal.