Help with steel id?

[Vito]

Hello,

I recently acquired 5 large saw blades. They're not circular but in a shape of a ''flat sheet metal with teeth on one end''. 2,3mm thick and the blade is made out of one piece (teeth not coated with anything or nothing...).
They have been used at local wood processing company and they had to replace it, so I jumped in and without any questions they happily handed me 5 of these blades. Now, that is quite a substantial amount of steel that could prove to be great.

The blades have these number etched on them: 5p/8001065-60.1
Could it be that the number 1065 is an identification of the steel? Shouldn't that kind of blade be made out of some kind of high speed steel and not out of simple 1065 steel?
I already did the '''quench test''' and after quenching, that piece of steel broke off like steel, with very little effort. The grain at the point of break, was silvery grey, quite fine I must say.
Anyway, do you maybe know what could that be? From what steel are those kind of blades mostly made of?
I really want to identify that steel because apparently, I can get 5 of those blade every 6 months and I really don't want to pass this up.

Thank you for all your help, Vito

[Michael Cochran]

Did you try google? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Saw+mill+blade+steel+type

[Vito]

M, yes I did. Nothing that could one call a good aproximate. Nothing in particular to find...

Thanks, Vito

[LastRonin]

Best suggestion I can come up with is to ask the friendly person who gave them to you if they know the manufacturer. If they do, then look up the manufacturer and call them. Now, they may not be willing to tell you exactly what the alloy is (sometimes that info is proprietary), but if you explain that you are a smith who has been given some discarded blades and just want to know how to properly heat treat any blades/tools you make from them so could they please give you an approximation of what common alloy to treat it as... they MAY be willing to tell you that.

[Gergely]

Hi Vito!

First I must say you are pretty lucky with that stuff. Let them give you what they can because as I have experienced almost all the saw mills (close to me) have started to use blades made of perforated sheet.

As about the steel type: I have searched a lot, couldn't find anything. Although Ronin's suggestion is very tempting, I won't bother with it anymore. I've been using it when needed, used it cold and hot, too. It behaves like high carbon steel with no other significant alloying elements in it. 

Having 5 pieces of it allows you to experiment freely (as you've already done it) and you will find the right way. Or you can use stock removal keeping them cold as they are thin enough for knives and escape the whole heat treating extravaganza. 

Free stuff often comes with the price of time to learn how to use it. But hey that's exactly the beauty in this re-using others scrap fun!

Be well, hit it hard!

Gergely

[Vito]

Ronin, I already have done that...actually that was the first thing that sprung to my mind because doing so would have the most sense.
But offcourse...I should have known better...nothing comes free afterall...They said that they can't tell because they have 5 different suppliers and they said that with a tone from which I could presume that they don't want to be bothered with my ''nonsense'' questions.

Gergely, yes I'm aware of my ''luckyness'' hehe
Well, as you've said. I don't wan't to use the cold stock removal methods, because I have a feeling that this steel is capable of achieving much more. The steel has been treated in a manner which allows maximum toughness and flexibility and not in a manner that a knife should be (harder). Because I will be making mostly small blades out of it (due to thickness), I roughly grinded 85mm long blade, with a rat tail tang, annealed it twice, heated it to non magnetic, hold it there for about 2 or 3 minutes, and quenched it in agitated water. Nothing cracked or anything...now is in the oven at 220celsius. I will leave it there for about an hour and we'll see what happens.

Best, Vito

[ThomasPowers]

And that is how you do it with unknown steel; test a heat treat and see if it gives you what you want and then modify based on your data.

Saw blade often has some nickel in it and so can make a nice bright line in pattern welded billets.

[Vito]

There, I've tested what I've made...and quite honestly, it came out like the thing that comes out when you go on the toilet (can't swear)

Long story short...FAIL

WAAAY to soft... Something went wrong but I don't know what :/
I'll just keep trying until I get decent result or until I run out of that saw blades hehe

Unless one of you comes up with a sensible idea of temperature ranges of individual stages.

 

Thanks and all the best, Vito

[ThomasPowers]

is this the same blade you tried out earlier?  Does it use a different metal for the edge than for the back?  Have you tried it with a a 190 degC draw?

[Vito]

Hello everyone,
I have discovered a couple of minutes ago that the saw blades actually are made out of two different steels.
The part where the teeth begin and about 20mm upwards towards the spine, the steel sparkles WAY WAY hotter and WHITTER!
Where does that lead me? Higher carbon content at the teeth area of the blades? 
Best, Vito

 

[Frosty]

Sounds like a bi metal blade to me. How about folding and welding a billet out of it so the high carbon teeth section is incorporated in the billet and provides the edge holding part of the blade?

That's the luck of the draw with salvaged mystery steel. Even when it performs like you anticipate it may not be what you think it is.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

bimetal saw blades are not uncomon, have you tried googling the part number that was on the blade? Somtimes that leads to a manufacture. 

Cut 3 strips, off the end (across the blade) and try quenching in oil (water and salt water if you have to to get the spine to harden) break off the teath, then break of the back to see what may be the difference. May be that the teath edge makes the bade (tho you have to bend the harf way to maintain the "good" steel in the tip. Testing heat treat, one step at a time. check the "knife class" that Steve and Rick did for a detailed descusion on experimental heat treat.

[Vito]

Frosty, that's exactly what I was thinking about. I'm just not completely sure about what tempering cycle should I do after that? Tempering which will suit the core of the sandwich or tempering that will suit the sides of the blade?
Charles, I have tried googling that number yes. And this time, was the first time that the google didn't find anything-no results. 

I will try experimenting with it yes. I've also considered to pay 60€ (about 70-75$) for analisis of the steel because I have unlimited access to that steel and that could pay off in the long run...we'll see.

But even with the steel that is only around the teeth, I would still be able to do some decent wood whitling blades, fillet knives, leather cutting tools, scandi knives, etc. The steel that is different from the rest of the blade, is about 20mm wide, which is something like the width of Mora knives...

 

Best, Vito

[Steve Sells]

If you are trying to make blades from this, why not look at the blade making section about this.  hard to find information when you dont look.  I will relocate this to the proper location.

[Gergely]

I couldn't find it now in here, so I hope I don't do anything wrong posting this here. (If I do Admins please feel free to delete the attachment.)

If I succeded to attach the pdf file you can see if the sparks are similar to some of the examples given.

Bests:

g

BP0020 Spark Testing.pdf

[ThomasPowers]

With a blade that has differing carbon contents for edge and back (hopefully the edge is the  HIGHER carbon) heat treat for the edge material and the back should do fine

[Charles R. Stevens]

Maybe I mudied thing up to much. If the edge with the teath is a harder steel than the spine, you can cut your blanks so the edge of the knife is in the hard stuff and the spine is in the soft stuff, wont be able to throw sparks off the back with flint, but it will make for a tough knife. To maintain an equal with of hard steel in the tip (for knives that the tip curves up) you will have to curve the bar up (the hard way as its thin and your curving it threw the thickness) that way you are not limited to 20mm wide blades. Not to say that the spine won't  harden, or cant be used for somthing else (say spatula blades)

maybe a bribe (5€ worth of beer or donuts) might loosen your sorces toung.   

[Frosty]

Vito: You're going to have to learn the proper names for heat treatment or you won't be able to ask good questions or understand what people are telling you in the answer.

For example you keep using the term, "temper," incorrectly.

Tempering is a controlled softening of the steel and does NOT include a quench. In tempering the steel's not hot enough to quench it just cools when chilled in water so the "Temper" stops running.

Do you understand what I just said? Do you know what "temper colors" are and why they're important? How about a "differential temper"?

You REALLY need to start reading the blade smithing sections of IFI like Steve suggests. Asking questions in the general section is going to get a lot of opinions from guys like me who are NOT bladesmiths or kids who's only "experience or knowledge" is from playing computer games. Without having a basic grounding in the specific lore of bladesmithing it can be nearly impossible to tell good from bad information.

Pull up a comfy chair, pack a lunch and something to drink, there are many hours of reading to just skim the blade/knife sections.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Vito]

If you are trying to make blades from this, why not look at the blade making section about this.  hard to find information when you dont look.  I will relocate this to the proper location.

​I'm sorry Steve, no pun intended but I'm in a constant rush for a last couple of weeks and spend most of my time in the workshop, in the meantime (when something's curing or cooling or something) I come here and write/ask/reply, etc.
This is offcourse no excuse and therefore, I'm sorry.
Best, Vito

[Vito]

I couldn't find it now in here, so I hope I don't do anything wrong posting this here. (If I do Admins please feel free to delete the attachment.)

If I succeded to attach the pdf file you can see if the sparks are similar to some of the examples given.

Bests:

g

BP0020 Spark Testing.pdf

​Thank you but this file doesn't seem to work properly (again on  this forum, like the picture posts)
Could you please send me this file to my e-mail?
vito.zibert@gmail.com

 

Thanks and all the best, Vito

[Vito]

With a blade that has differing carbon contents for edge and back (hopefully the edge is the  HIGHER carbon) heat treat for the edge material and the back should do fine

​Thank you, I was thinking alike.

Best,Vito

[Vito]

Maybe I mudied thing up to much. If the edge with the teath is a harder steel than the spine, you can cut your blanks so the edge of the knife is in the hard stuff and the spine is in the soft stuff, wont be able to throw sparks off the back with flint, but it will make for a tough knife. To maintain an equal with of hard steel in the tip (for knives that the tip curves up) you will have to curve the bar up (the hard way as its thin and your curving it threw the thickness) that way you are not limited to 20mm wide blades. Not to say that the spine won't  harden, or cant be used for somthing else (say spatula blades)

maybe a bribe (5€ worth of beer or donuts) might loosen your sorces toung.   

​Haha, Charles, I was also thinking of buying a case of beer as a bribe
Yes, or I could just cut the main shape a bit angled, so the part with more carbon covers the whole edge; from the plunge to the tip.

[Vito]

Vito: You're going to have to learn the proper names for heat treatment or you won't be able to ask good questions or understand what people are telling you in the answer.

For example you keep using the term, "temper," incorrectly.

Tempering is a controlled softening of the steel and does NOT include a quench. In tempering the steel's not hot enough to quench it just cools when chilled in water so the "Temper" stops running.

Do you understand what I just said? Do you know what "temper colors" are and why they're important? How about a "differential temper"?

You REALLY need to start reading the blade smithing sections of IFI like Steve suggests. Asking questions in the general section is going to get a lot of opinions from guys like me who are NOT bladesmiths or kids who's only "experience or knowledge" is from playing computer games. Without having a basic grounding in the specific lore of bladesmithing it can be nearly impossible to tell good from bad information.

Pull up a comfy chair, pack a lunch and something to drink, there are many hours of reading to just skim the blade/knife sections.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

​Frosty: I know proper names for heat treatment and if it at some point seemed like I don't then I apologise. But after revision of my own posts I can't find such case. When have I used the word ''temper'' incorrectly? It seems to me like you have missunderstood my messages and not that I don't use terms correctly.
I know the terms and what they stand for; everything: from temper colours to differential tempering (that's what you were refering to)....please re-read my posts and you will find out that the word TEMPERING hasn't been out of place one single time. If it has, please feel free to quote me and I will clarify thins up for you.
Best, Vito

[Vito]

If you are trying to make blades from this, why not look at the blade making section about this.  hard to find information when you dont look.  I will relocate this to the proper location.

​Steve...afterall...isn't this  a forum called ''Heat treating knives, blades, etc.''?
This discussion is in its proper location already. I'm not interested HOW to make a knife. I'm interested in identification and therefore heat treatment of this particular steel...
What seems to be the problem?

Best, Vito

[Charles R. Stevens]

Just makes it easer to find the information for some one else serching the forum, as oposed to "blacksmithing general descusian" "heat treat" in the knife section describes what you are doing a bit better.