Air hammer choices

[will52100]

As I move more into decorative iron work I am becoming more  and more interested in an air hammer.  As a knife maker I really don't need one.  I've got a tire hammer that works very well for making large stock small enough to shape on the anvil.  The main reason I got a hammer to begin with is that 52100 is stiff at lower forging temps, like your beating on cold iron almost and working larger stock down by hand would kill you.  I've got an H frame hydraulic press I built, and works wonderful for damascus.  The hammer and press really compliment one another.

 

However I keep looking at air hammers.  I'm really attracted to self contained hammers, but then like the looks of Big Blue as well.

 

What's the pro's and cons of self contained hammers vs. Big Blue and others?  I know some has issues with overheating the self contained hammers, but I don't plan on running it hard all day, maybe 3-5 hours at a time at the most.  After all, a day at the forge leaves me a month's worth of finish work.

 

While I like to play with decorative iron and such, they will mainly be used to draw out thick, fairly hard to move steel for knife making.  Also some damascus as well.

 

The one thing I really, really love about the tire hammer is that a 120V 1 horse motor runs it with no problem.  I only have single phase power in my shop, so I'm limited to single phase, 220.  Also the tire hammer, once I fixed some of the weak welds and such is basically maintenance free other than lube.

 

If I did get an air hammer I'd want something around a 100 pounder and most likely keep the 50 pound tire hammer as well.

[arftist]

3 things then the other fellows can laugh at me all they want;

 

With a utility hammer you need BIG AIR. for a hundred # hammer you are going to need xtra big air. Big expense and lots of electricity, very inefficient on single phase. 

 

Self contained do not need external compressors.. 

 

As you have discovered, mechanical hits the hardest for the amount of electricity. Bigger tire hammer? 

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Will,
I suggest a visit to Joshe's shop to give Big Blue a road test.. He has incorporated a cool feature of single hit that works well that might interest you.. Great hammer that holds resale value and affordable .. You will most likely get many responses to which is best just like buying a car.. Ford , GM efct. Good luck
Forge on and make beautiful things
Jim

[pike3e]

I have a self contained 55lb striker hammer and it is great but one thing I dont like is the constant "chug, chug, chug" when it is running. A utility hammer does not make a sound until you actually start hammering, the self contained never shuts up. 

[HWooldridge]

I have a self contained 55lb striker hammer and it is great but one thing I dont like is the constant "chug, chug, chug" when it is running. A utility hammer does not make a sound until you actually start hammering, the self contained never shuts up. 

 

Some folks pipe the exhaust outside to cut down on the fumes and clatter inside the shop.  It may still make noise but the oil mist will be reduced.

[SJS]

Grant Sarver's thumbnail rule is 25 CFM per 100# of weight of the hammer for a Utility/Steam hammer. You can get a 7.5 HP single phase compressor that will do 22-23 CFM for around 2k new. Which if you are mainly using it with top tooling flat die style is just fine 90-95% of the time. You would notice the lag doing production drawing where you just blow through the free air... They do make 10 HP rotary screw compressors single phase units, but they are expensive 6-11K but you get like 35-45CFM. The Utility style hammers are very versatile, but honestly are a little more expensive to set up and run because of the expense of the separate compressor. BUT they have great control, and most of the time a good amounts of space between the dies. The Iron Kiss 100, and the KZ100, are probably superior to the Blu Max 110, but they all are very versatile and worth having in the shop. A decent sized compressor is pretty noisy if it is just in your shop, and you will want to isolate it from the main shop to protect the air intake, and to reduce the noise. You will be better off piping your hammers exhaust out of the shop completely, wether it is a utility or a self contained, you don't want the sound or the oil droplets causing problems for you. The self contained hammers chug on along when they are on. They have great control also, and you can sneak up on your tooling if you are doing light work, something that is hard to do on a mechanical hammer at all. Most of the hammers available in the states have decent air between the dies, about the same as the Big Blu or a little smaller. They are available with options to enable you to run them on 230 single phase, and for a big purchase probably offer the best value and control. Here the old used industrial hammers are the cream of the crop, the Massey Clear Span, the Nazel, the Beche. The new hammers that are still in production like the Sahinler, the Anyang, the Striker are all good hammers, and I would prefer them to a LG or a tire hammer any day of the week... If money weren't a factor, but it always is... so its not really a fair statement;-)

[will52100]

Thanks, still doing reading and thinking about it.  Got no real justification for one other than "I want that".  

 

The reason I like the self contained hammers is it reminds me of a mechanical hammer with it's crank driven compressor piston.  That and it's all in one vs. buying a compressor to go with it.

 

I've thought about trying to build a 100 pound hammer, but not having any plans out there and primarily not having time to mess with it means it'll probably stay "just an idea"  Also very very attracted to the control an air hammer has vs mechanical.

 

That said I've done a bit of tooling on my tire hammer and it's got great control for a mechanical hammer, just nowhere near what an air hammer has.

[John Larson]

It is imperative to NOT expose your utility air hammer cylinder and valves to synthetic oil in liquid or fume form because the synthetic oil causes the O-rings and seals to swell irreparably.  Because air compressor manufacturers now seem to want to place synthetic oil in crankcases to increase times between oil changes, they have sabotaged valve and cylinder manufacturers who declare it imperative to not use synthetic oils.  The NFPA published a technical paper in 1977 advising of the problem.  Quincy reciprocating compressors seem to arrive with non-synthetic break-in oil, so when changing the oil after the break-in period just use standard non-synthetic oil.  Every single encounter I have had with Ingersoll-Rand new compressors is that they use synthetic oil, but you need to verify the situation for yourself.
 
If you obtain a new compressor or a used one that is almost new that uses synthetic oil you will have to clean out the crank case thoroughly, not just drain it, to eliminate all traces of synthetic oil.  Fumes travel into the main air line and will definitely affect longevity of the valves in the utility hammer.  A contaminated receiver tank will eventually cleanse itself, I suppose, but you may want to use a post-tank high efficiency oil fume filter to attempt to capture the fumes.  Screw compressors are far worse than piston compressors in this regard.
 
Tis a shame, but it is reality.  Use old-fashioned mineral oil to avoid potential grief and expense.
 
Apparently not all synthetic oils are damaging or damaging in equal; amounts.  And not all valves are equally susceptible.  Norgren valves are.  I am doing research on Bosch-Rexroth (now Aventics) ceramic valves. 
 
As for air compressor sizing, Iron Kiss 50s can use a 3hp 2-stage compressor produce about 12 cfm at 100 psi.  A 75 uses 5 hp, a 100 uses 7.5 hp.  Quincy suggests 1 hp per 4 cfm at about 100 psi, but I think of a 5 hp pump producing 15 to 17 cfm at 150 psi.  These suggestions for IK hammer sizes are for continuous running (multiple irons in the fire)  A 60 gallon tank is best because it fills faster than an 80, and anything larger than 80 is too large for rapid tank recharging.

[JeremyP]

I have a self contained 55lb striker hammer and it is great but one thing I dont like is the constant "chug, chug, chug" when it is running. A utility hammer does not make a sound until you actually start hammering, the self contained never shuts up. 

I didn't realize this until I visited a friends shop and he turned on his self contained.

I have my air compressor in the middle of my shop so when i start using the hammer, the clanging plus the compressor running is pretty loud, but that self contained was every bit as loud and doesn't shut up unless you constantly turn it on and off.

But like my buddy told me. none of this forging business is quiet anyway

[Jamesrjohnson]

I just completed a sound test on typical equipment in a shop. All tests were done using a Tenmars TM-102 sound meter. All tests were taken 10 ft. from the equipment running. It made little difference where you were from the machine (front, back, sides, etc.) as long as you were 10 ft. away. All tests were done in my metal, non-insulated building. I am sure that if others did a similar test, results can vary based on the building, the equipment, the ambient noise levels... but here are the results I obtained: Ambient Dba with lights on 40 Dba (the lights have transformers that do make a little noise, but not much.

6 hp. Campbell Hausfeld air compressor 78 Dba

Milwaukee 4" grinder 91 Dba

Dewalt Chop saw, cutting 1/2" round bar 84 Dba

Miller Bobcat gas welder 89Dba

33 lb Anyang self contained not forging 69Dba

88 lb. Anyang self contained not forging 74Dba

165 lb. Anyang self contained not forging 74 Dba

88 lb. Anyang forging 3/4" round bar 100 Dba.

 

From this you can see that the sound of the Anyang hammer is actually less than the air compressor and much less than most of the equipment that is run in a typical shop. Obviously, where the sound is generated is when you are forging and other than sound proofing your building and wearing ear protection (which should be done under any condition), there is not much that can be done to deaden the sound of steel hitting steel. I hope this helps lay out the facts at least that we obtained in our shop. James Johnson

[SoCal Dave]

You forgot the music playing in the background that you can hear over all  the machines running at the same time.  

[matei campan]

You forgot the music playing in the background that you can hear over all  the machines running at the same time.  

 

and wearing earplugs as well :)

[SJS]

I used to go into the shop, put on a respirator, and the work tunes hearing protection...

[Jamesrjohnson]

I wear "over the ear" protectors.  Ear and eye protection is important.  

[SJS]

I go to church in my safety glasses, they are a given... You only have to protect anything you would like to keep, or don't want damaged. I almost never wear shorts, or shoes without a protective rating;-)

[will52100]

I'm with you on the eye protection.  I had a small piece of titanium flip up off the bandsaw and poke me in the eye, after the 2 hour waiting room experience and then the doc poking around and the week of cream I had to put on the small cut on my eye and such I just about won't go outside without safety glasses and buy them in bulk.

[SJS]

I had a cute girl at the optometrists office talk me out of big glasses years ago, and go with some stupid stylish glasses. Then I had a chunk of scale jump off the work and cartwheel over the worthlessly small safety glass "stylish" glasses and adhere to my cornea!!! Had an ER doc knock the scale off, then had to make a second trip for an ophthalmologist to use a tiny dremel to remove the rust from my cornea. They didn't give me cream or anything, but letting someone use a dremel on your eye, isn't something I want to repeat, not that it hurt or anything, just goes against all your natural defenses, letting anyone touch your eyeball... Of course the next time I got glasses I got the largest frames and the biggest lens available... Over reacting is a specialty I suppose;-) My nose was bruised for 3 months the glasses were safety "Glass" cause I was also tired of the plastic and polycarb scratching... Lots of lessons learned: not too small, not too big, not too heavy, but still good coverage, and a few scratches never hurt nearly as much as Coke bottle glasses bruising your nose;-) I am unashamed about letting other people learn from my mistakes, I try to learn from them, and I don't want people getting hurt or wasting money when they can learn the easy way, instead of the hard way... A wise man can be taught, a fool is lucky if he learns the hard way, most fools are untrainable...

[ThomasPowers]

Had many an optometrist try to talk me into smaller glasses especially as I have a strong prescription---they would be "more comfortable". I'd show them the chips, scratches and burns on the old pair and said I was quite comfortable having those on my glasses and not my eyes.  Always got polycarbonate and the safety frames tended to be 1/4 the price of "designer frames"...

[lawman]

Had an ER doc knock the scale off, then had to make a second trip for an ophthalmologist to use a tiny dremel to remove the rust from my cornea. They didn't give me cream or anything, but letting someone use a dremel on your eye, isn't something I want to repeat, not that it hurt or anything, just goes against all your natural defenses, letting anyone touch your eyeball...

:lol: ......I had the same thing happen except it was a shard of metal from grinding.

 

Got jabbed in the eye at the ER with a plastic screwdriver but they couldn't get it out.  They sent me to the optometrist.

 

Walked in to see the Eye doctor and it was a little asia man. He asked me who my eye doctor was and I told him I had 20/20 vision and didn't have one. 

 

He shook my hand and said " Hi....Im Dr Wong....I your new eye doctor", Whipped out the dremel and went to town.

 

That is a weird feelin having someone crawl up on top of a chair and start drilling on your eyeball with a power tool.

 

At least the little guy was fast and had some steady hands.

 

The irritating thing about the whole situation was, he only charged me $20 and fixed me right up but I had to pay $750 and get poked in the eye by some jack wagon with a craftsman screwdriver before the ER would refer me.

[WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith]

I have a 155 Big Blu. I put a Harley muffler on the exhaust and now only hear the dies hitting together. A while back someone was commenting about vapor and fumes in the shop. As a test I taped a coffee filter over the end of the muffler. After 3 months I took it off and there was no oil on it. In a shop you need an air compressor anyway so put it to use running your hammer as well as other air tools. I too don't like the chug chug of the self contained. The Big Blu is quite simple and easy to work on if you need to (I haven't after over 5 years of service). If the air compressor goes south on you you can get another compressor or repair it. With self contained you are limited to repairing that unit.

[Ric Furrer]

I love the rhythm of the Nazel...takes a while to adjust to the utilities lack of breathing. Even mechanicals have a pulse to them.

 

Ric

 

[basher]

If I were you I would try and rent out some space in peoples forges who own the hammers you are looking for and get hands on experience so you can make your own decisions . 3 hours in 3 shops at shop rate+ a beer  or two would tell you all you need to know and a few hundred spent could save thousands in a wrong choice.

 having said that most people love "their" air hammers so you will probably be happy with whatever you settle with.

[will52100]

Thanks, I"m down to three choices, really four.  One, an anyang 88, a big blue, building a 100 pound mechanical just for fun, and regaining my senses and staying with the hammer and press I've got.  I most likely will get one eventually, just trying to resist the urge.

[smihammar]

It is important to think carefully about what you should use hammers for and also try to look ahead. Typical is that after a few years use the machine you first bought or built is insufficient or is inefficient in some way. You mention a 40 kg hammer and  I agree it is a good alround size. It can forge steel up to 2 inches great. Its ofcourse possible to get bigger pieces between the dies, but the effect is not so big and it takes longer time . I have considered building a hammer, but since I started early with air hammer, I was afraid that the result would not be usefull enough. It also cost much with all steel and parts needed  for a build here in Norway. So the first hammer I bought was Anyang 15 kg. It was much smaller then the 100 kg Becher that I have used at work. The 15 kg is small and handy and beat relatively hard.  About 300 hit per minute keeps the iron hot for some time and much can be doen in one heat. Forging 25 mm round iron is no problem. 30mm square gets a little tough for the 15 kg Anyang. I sold the 15 kg after one year or so and got a 50 kg Demoor and later also a 40 kg Anyang.

I have had some trip hammers. The works okay, but gives me a sense of a museum piece.. Not to be negative, but air hammers are more my thing. I have had several types of air hammers (dont know the exact number), old and new. Old is extremely heavy built and usually two piece. You can get new self-contained air hammers   both one and two piece and I would probably gone for a two piece hammer. The to piece hammer can be mounted on a steel base like the one piece , so instalation is the same. Its great to have a seperated anvil that is heavy. Ram / anvil ratio 1/10 . 

 

Edited February 22, 2015 by smihammar

[DuEulear]

I keep a rare earth magnet about 2" round by1/2 thick in my first aid kit for steel in the eyebal emergency removal has come in handy dispite the safety specs

on the plus side wraped in a ziplock bag an inside my first aid kit it is still strong enough to keep the kit stuck to anything iron lol