Confessions of a knife abuser...

[Charles R. Stevens]

My forum and Internet search skills suck, as I've expressed before. So at hazard of looking like an idiot, I ask your indulgence. In utility type fixed blades, of aproximently 4", what are the strongest designs? Particularly tips. In my day job I need a knife that that can cut rope and tac in an emergency, or be turned to any other rough service.

[Steve Sells]

tanto  type tips have more metal at the tip, vs a siletto  with small mass that can snap off.  Also good to include a gut hook for cuttting seat belts, or if you have the time, a serated section can also help remoming the belts.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Thanks Steve.

[bigfootnampa]

Most horsemen seem to like fixed blades kind of stout and about 4" long.  They like to wear them in a scabbard designed to hang at angle so that the knife can be drawn easily in a cross draw fashion.  Sharp edged but with a thick backed blade that would be very strong if misused for prying or such.  They don't ask much!

[ThomasPowers]

appleseed grind

[jmccustomknives]

As far as tips go, the drop point is the strongest, together with the "appleseed" edge and a proper heat treat it can be indestructable.

[Frosty]

Apple seed grind? Is that a specific convex blade grind? Or am I so far off it'll take you guys a while to stop laughing. S'okay, I'm good with laughing folk, sooooo much better than angry folk. <grin>

 

When I was working highways maint. all our trucks had escape gear, a window punch and a belt knife. The belt knife has a proper name I'm sure but that's what we called them. They were sort of like a plastic knuckle duster with an enclosed blade. You used it by making a fist with it and drawing it back across a trapped victim, the belt would slip into a shallow "V" shaped channel and be drawn across the blade. Training classes had us all using the things and they worked as well on leather as vinyl or seatbelt web.

 

Later escape tools had the widow breaker and belt knife on the same tool. A knuckle duster with a hard steel point to break windows and a really sharp blade to cut belts. Great tools, you can punch right through a side window and cut the belt on the back stroke.

 

A few years before all I had was my pocket knife and knocked out a side window and managed to cut the gal out of her belts. The really frightening down side was the car was catching fire rapidly so we couldn't do anything but just yard her out through the window, spinal injuries or not. I really wish I'd had one of the escape tools, we might have had time to go more slowly and at least stabilize her neck. Turned out the air bag had knocked the snott out of her and she was just out, not injured.

 

Still, an escape tool should be an item in all our vehicles, might be us or one of ours next time. Seriously, if you have a window punch you don't have to wait till the car fills with water to get out.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Apple seed grind, that would be similar to a properly ground axe? Slightly convex sides correct?
Yep, BF I figure I need a pry bar with an edge.
As to a drop point, is that like a Kbar or a chef kife?
Yes, frosty I've looked at ascape tools. And as, strictly a extradition tool, the large mountain rescue escape tools would work well. But I need a bit more versitility in a tool.

[jmccustomknives]

Here's a version of the drop point.  You get a lot more "meat" to support the point.  A flat grind will be easier to sharpen but you'll loose some of the strength,  For a smaller knife a flat grind will work best for edge holding.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Thank you sir, I know I have no need for a larger knife. Seems like the 2 inches closest to the hilt, and the tip are all that seem to get dull.

[jmccustomknives]

It should be noted that the right choice of steel will greatly effect strenth.  That particular blade was forged from a ball bearing (52100).  A well ballanced steel for edge holding and strength.  For shear strength and decent edge holding L-6 is about the best I've ever worked with.  For something with more stainless ability D-2 is a good choice.  This ofcourse is my opinion. :rolleyes:

[homeshow]

Proper heat treat is crucial. A knife maker with a great heat treating system will make you a knife you can use for years. One of the tests that I was taught for after heat treat is to throw a blank point first down into a concrete slab. If the point does not break, crack, or deform(mush) then its on to the next test.

[DSW]

Frosty, your story brings back bad memories. in 2001 heading down to Florida to go diving, I blew a front tire and wrapped my suburban around a 12:" tree in the drivers door. Floor folded up and trapped my left foot. Almost immediately some others stopped to see if they could help me out. I asked those that stopped if anyone had a knife, no one did. I told them to reach in the back and pass me my dive box which had slid out of my reach when I hit the tree. I grabbed my 3" serrated blunt point dive knife and cut the boot laces, followed by my Z knife to cut the seat belt and got out the passenger door. About 3 or 4 minutes later the cops showed up. He kept asking all the witnesses where the driver was. Finally one of the witnesses told him "for the last time we've told you, the driver is sitting right there. His boots still stuck in the floor!" Cop looks in thru the shattered windshield at my boot folded up in the floor and finally stops asking that question.

 

 

Best cutting tool I've found are a cheap pair of "trauma shears". You can pick them up almost anywhere. They cut straps, rope, fishing line, wire leader and even pennies. I always carry one in my pocket while diving. The other pocket has the Z knife and I carry at least 2 knives, the fixed serrated on on my the hose for my SPG and a folding serrated drop point in my right shoulder harness.

 

 

Frosty, I think the Z knife is what you were talking about for cutting seat belts.

 

[Steve Sells]

Proper heat treat is crucial. A knife maker with a great heat treating system will make you a knife you can use for years. One of the tests that I was taught for after heat treat is to throw a blank point first down into a concrete slab. If the point does not break, crack, or deform(mush) then its on to the next test.

WHAT throw the blade?  never mind :( just wear body armour when you do it, and far away from me and my family.

[Rich Hale]

There are alot of ways to test a blade for edge holding. The tests that work are pretty well defined by the ABS for their process of testing..

i think for someone to post other ways on here that are not widely recognized makes me wonder about how many and wot kinds of knives have they made and would they share pics of some of their work?

[bigfootnampa]

Yes I have had guys look at some of my carving knives and tell me about the knives that they used to make... how they could bend them 180 degrees without damage... etcetera, etcetera!  I roll my eyes and think "no wonder they quit making them... who would want a knife like that?"!  My carving knives are made to cut hardwood and hold an edge for a long time doing so!  The blades are small and fairly thin... easy to break if you are careless... or abusive... but experts can carve with them for many years!  When you are slicing hardwoods it's all about the edge!

[homeshow]

These were point tested after all heat treating was done. They are not sharp yet. I was taugh a very comprehensive borderline knife abuse testing system. These were thrown into this slab. Here is a picture of the slab. The gentleman that taught me this is an American Bladesmith Society journeyman.

[Steve Sells]

This practice is dangerous, and  whoever told you to do that is not thinking to well about what could happen.

[Rich Hale]

With that I think any one that wants to use this as one of their shop test procedures should certainly do so,  I will stick with my normal routines.

[homeshow]

Using sharp objects is dangerous. Heating steel and hitting it with a hammer is dangerous. Grinding is dangerous. Taking an unknow piece of steel and breaking it in a vise tp see the grain pattern is dangerous. I have over 60 hours of industrial safety training. As well as signing on our blacksmith club's safety training. I'm as capable of deciding what is safe as anyone.

[Rich Hale]

For those that are new to this craft and read the forums as much as i do or maybe even more I must express a few more thoughts on this matter of throwing heat treat knives on the floor and how safe it is:

 

Smithing has its dangers for sure. hot steel heavy weights. misdirected or misused tools are allpart of that. With proper knowledge that is correct and proven a person can indeed forge hot steel with proper tonge and hammers and anvil and even begging can pretty well predict what will happen when we do. The same thoughts apply to grinding and using abrasives. There is certainly information on here and other sites that give a primer on how to work in a safef manner and what protection is needed.

 

The rest of shop practices are pretty well the same. Deterrmine wot you wish to do..visit someone doing it for tips and instruction. read all you can find about it and step into the shallow end and work forward.

 

I have no idea how any one can predict wot will happen when you throw a heat treated high carbon steel blade onto a concrete floor. We can guess it will react in some kind of manner but we cannot predict where it will land, how far,,,with how much energy, how much force it will have remaining etc.

 

And for sure if you can cite references that are published about this I for one will read them in their entirety.

For those new folks to smithing, please ...Do not try this!

[Nobody Special]

Using sharp objects is dangerous. Heating steel and hitting it with a hammer is dangerous. Grinding is dangerous. Taking an unknow piece of steel and breaking it in a vise tp see the grain pattern is dangerous. I have over 60 hours of industrial safety training. As well as signing on our blacksmith club's safety training. I'm as capable of deciding what is safe as anyone.

 

Sure. And if you do it long enough, even taking proper safety precautions, you'll get all the injuries associated with it.

 

Tennis elbow, mashed fingers, burnt...well, burns anyways, cuts, pinches, stuff dropped on your toes, small divots out of your skin from brushing against a grinder or sander.

 

You could add throwing a pointy metal object at a concrete slab to see if it breaks if you want, sharpened or not, and may get away with it for awhile, but I don't think I'd want the possible injuries from when that one inevitably goes wrong. I once spent a very long evening in the Army filling out an incident report over a couple of drunk idiots with rubber bands and paperclips. Just paperclips. Included was the sentence "came into the CQ area screaming "my eye, my eye, oh my God my ****** eye!"

 

Murphy's law is out to get you. Plan accordingly.

 

I can live with a burn or a blood blister, but my experience in throwing things is that they bounce, usually in the worst possible direction.

[Bruno C.]

I just got a blood blister after I tipped over a Jack Stand while jacking up my truck.  Was setting it in place, and it simply tipped over (no weight on it), when I reached for it, landed right on my finger.   I obliged the laws of physics with a customary curse and yelp.  Just a reminder, with all the talk of throwing knives at concrete and all,  the laws of physics always have a way of reminding us of their power and endless will.  Always remember Murphy's Law as well.   Whatever can go wrong Will Go Wrong.   Aside from knife shrapnel in the face as a good possibility, what if a piece lands/goes somewhere inside one of your tools ?  Like your belt sander motor, or not likely but possibly cuts a propane hose running to your forge ?  Might get a good BTM then.  Just saying, if you are going to do such things, don't take the Laws of physics for granted.   Some gun makers in Third World Countries test there guns in an enclosed Cage filled with sand to test for function, and even then it's usually I would think on the far side of the shop.  Think of all the things that can go wrong with a Firearm ?  Bad Bullets, bad alignment, weak spots/parts, poor design, etc...  These third world guys test their firearms by hand in lieu of an automated firearm mount of sorts behinds tons of safety glass.  That's pretty brave or at least certain of their craftsmanship.  But they still shoot into a cage to prevent "much" outward damage to others.   Anything can be dangerous and with proper precautions can be manageable...  Just remember, run around hooting and hollaring throwing knives at concrete because of your perceived success Will Always invite the Laws of Physics, or Darwin to say the least.

 

Change for a Nickel ?

[Charles R. Stevens]

Home show
most of us do things that aren't the safest, but for the most part because of our experience we do just fine. Most folks on IFI err on the side of caution, when it comes to what the in uninitiated may read, and possibly misinterpret. I for one wouldn't advise crawling into a stall with an enraged horse. But it's something I do on a farly regular bassis. As I've gotten older I'v added a bull vest and helmet to my equipment, but it's a good way to get killed if you don't have tens of thousands of hours of experience.
You sir certainly have the experience to make an informed decision as to the level of risk you take in your own shop. As Rich says, your shop, your rules. It's the guys with 0- 9,999 hours shop time we wory about.

[Steve Sells]

I guess I should not complain and feel lucky I have someone with so much experiance to show me the error off my ways, of course I would get fired at work if I threw anytihng to "test" it. but that is just an OSHA thing, not that they know any better.

These were point tested after all heat treating was done. They are not sharp yet. I was taugh a very comprehensive borderline knife abuse testing system. These were thrown into this slab. Here is a picture of the slab. The gentleman that taught me this is an American Bladesmith Society journeyman.

you faiiled to mention what these were made from and by Whom ?