Troubles finding clay

[Grem]

So I live in Las Vegas, I've been searching the internet for a clay supply store and can only seem to find cement and concrete. I've found a couple good refractory recipes but they all call for fire clay. I thought I had a break with Homedepot because it's listed on the website, but the store manager told me that it's not stocked in this region at all so I can't even order it online and pick up in the store. Every masonry supply store I've found only stocks Concrete and Marble oddly enough.

Anyone know how I can get my hands on some clay?
I'm not opposed to buying clay flower pots or bricks and beating the crap out of them.. I mean I do have a hammer or three. But I don't know if that's going to work or if anyone else here might be having the same problem I am. 

What I've got as far as the recipe:

-Silica Sand

-Type 1/2 Portland cement

-Perlite

-Clay

 

[doc]

Try looking for ceramic supply (pottery supply) or A P Green co. or perhaps Rutland furnace cement.

[DSW]

My 1st suggestion would be a masonry supply house for fire clay. You want a real supply house, one that caters to the industry usually vs home owners. Almost all the ones in my are carry fire clay.

 

Also well drillers use bentonite clay often to seal around well casings. I've seen that listed in a couple recipes IIRC.

[Grem]

Yeah I've looked for masonry suppliers and they only list actual cement, now it's entirely possible that they carry fireclay and just don't list it, so I'm going to make some phone calls tomorrow, but at first glace it doesn't really seem to be something that's stocked very easily here.

[Grem]

I found clay! I called a guy that installs walls, evidently his business was listed as a supply store instead of a contractor but he game me the number for someone that supplies clay out here but for some reason isn't popping up on google. Problem solved.

[yahoo2]

Fire clay is a pretty generic term covering a multitude of clays anything from porcelain to terracotta bricks. you are looking for a Kaolin, ceramic or china clay. Potters sometimes refer to it as EPK clay (short for Edgar Plastic Kaolin) this was the first company to mine a true kaolin in America (Florida I think) and has become the default standard benchmark. They typically have a chemical analysis around 46.6% SiO₂  38% Al₂O₃ 13% H₂O ions and very low amounts of anything else.

 

Ironically it is often formed under a layer of coal because the forest removes almost all the minerals that could be a flux and leaves the aluminium and silicon oxides (refractory). pure white kaolins have been hard to find in the past due to re-contamination from erosion and glaciers plowing through the landscape grinding massive boulders to dust and depositing it back into this clay layer.

[ThomasPowers]

I've *boiled* a terra cotta flowerpot in a coal forge before---most amusing

[Grem]

I've *boiled* a terra cotta flowerpot in a coal forge before---most amusing

 

That is amusing haha. Well done.

[Nobody Special]

Building and contractor supply places carry fireclay sometimes.

 

It varies regionally, but you can also sometimes get bentonite from feed stores (sometimes you have to order it). It's often used to line stock ponds and seal cracks in them.

[Grem]

Yeah I'm good on the clay, another question though, does it matter what type of cement I get?

The recipe shows Type I/II but doesn't specifically say it HAS to be that. 

[DSW]

You probably won't be easily able to locate any of the other "types" of ASTM portland like Type III, Type IV or Type V as they are "specialty" portland's used primarily in the concrete industry. Type III IIRC is "high early" and develops strength faster than "standard" portlands do, often used for precast work. Type IV is slow hydrate and takes longer to reach full cure but is "cooler" and doesn't develop as high a temp while hydrating. Used for massive concrete pours like dams. Type V is for high alkali conditions if I remember my structures class.

 

Adding an "a" to the type number indicates an air entraining mix for freeze thaw cycles. IE Type Ia, type IIa etc.

 

 

What you might be thinking of is sometimes referred to as "masons mix" or "masonry cement". That's where they mix portland and lime together and bag it so the mason doesn't have to be bothered with both. I ave no idea if the added lime will mess with the mix or not, but I'd just avoid it and use the plain portland myself.

 

I'm curious what "recipe" you are going to use. I've seen a bunch of different mixes and suggestions and an always on the look for others to file away for later reference and use.

[Frosty]

Did you call a concrete company? Every one I've called not only carries fire clay but are happy to answer questions. They probably aren't going to be able to supply you with a recipe for a forge refractory but fire places, fire pits, BBQs, etc. no problem. Virtually every town in the US has a market for fire clay so somebody there carries it.

 

Are you building a solid fuel or propane forge? If you're building a propane forge NO cement! If it's a solid fuel forge forget the insulation (perlite) it's not much use. Or are you building a closed furnace?

 

All these things make a difference. More info will get you much better answers. One more tip is let your fingers do the walking in the Yellow Pages. The internet has some severe limitations where searching out things is concerned. Talking to people on the phone is far faster; even if they don't know or carry what you're looking for, they'll know who does, or know someone who knows someone knows who does.

 

I love the web but it's limited, as you've found on this quest.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Grem]

You probably won't be easily able to locate any of the other "types" of ASTM portland like Type III, Type IV or Type V as they are "specialty" portland's used primarily in the concrete industry. Type III IIRC is "high early" and develops strength faster than "standard" portlands do, often used for precast work. Type IV is slow hydrate and takes longer to reach full cure but is "cooler" and doesn't develop as high a temp while hydrating. Used for massive concrete pours like dams. Type V is for high alkali conditions if I remember my structures class.

 

Adding an "a" to the type number indicates an air entraining mix for freeze thaw cycles. IE Type Ia, type IIa etc.

 

 

What you might be thinking of is sometimes referred to as "masons mix" or "masonry cement". That's where they mix portland and lime together and bag it so the mason doesn't have to be bothered with both. I ave no idea if the added lime will mess with the mix or not, but I'd just avoid it and use the plain portland myself.

 

I'm curious what "recipe" you are going to use. I've seen a bunch of different mixes and suggestions and an always on the look for others to file away for later reference and use.

 

You know what's strange home depot carries Type III/V. That seems to be the most common out here, but I'm sure I'll find I/II. I'm going off the recipe from backyardmetalcasting.com.

 

Did you call a concrete company? Every one I've called not only carries fire clay but are happy to answer questions. They probably aren't going to be able to supply you with a recipe for a forge refractory but fire places, fire pits, BBQs, etc. no problem. Virtually every town in the US has a market for fire clay so somebody there carries it.

 

Are you building a solid fuel or propane forge? If you're building a propane forge NO cement! If it's a solid fuel forge forget the insulation (perlite) it's not much use. Or are you building a closed furnace?

 

All these things make a difference. More info will get you much better answers. One more tip is let your fingers do the walking in the Yellow Pages. The internet has some severe limitations where searching out things is concerned. Talking to people on the phone is far faster; even if they don't know or carry what you're looking for, they'll know who does, or know someone who knows someone knows who does.

 

I love the web but it's limited, as you've found on this quest.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

As for the forge, I'm going with Charcoal/Solid fuel. There's a simple romance in it, and that's the whole reason I wanted to get into this. The Foundry however I'm looking at waste oil. I've actually got a few of the things here, like an air compressor hell I wouldn't be surprised if I had an atomizer back there too.

[DSW]

You know what's strange home depot carries Type III/V. That seems to be the most common out here, but I'm sure I'll find I/II. I'm going off the recipe from backyardmetalcasting.com.

 

 

Interesting. Makes me wonder if your area isn't one of those with a high alkali level, thus the need for type V. With the heat in Nevada I can't see the need for high early. If anything I'd expect possibly the opposite, where they would want to slow the hydration down. In mid summer we used to add a lot of retarder to slow the set time to reduce shrinkage cracks that would form when the crete or mortar would dry to quickly. Most of the techniques we used ( ice water or ice in the ready mix truck, various retarders at the plant as well as added on site, early morning pours, added shade covers for the pour) mostly came from experiences in Arizona and Nevada.

 

If you have a link to the recipe, I'd be interested in seeing it.

[Nobody Special]

http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/refractories.html

 

I've used this recipe and variations on it with some success. Think mine has been type 1 and 2 portland. It was whatever was available at the big box store at the time.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Go to Aardvark pottery supplies down on Steptoe. It is across Boulder Highway off Tropicana. They should have kiln supplies that will work. Wood fire clay bodies are rated at cone 14+ , and the kilns also need to be protected from heat. If you are in the North end of the valley you could talk to Amy Kline at Pottery West on Pioneer off Lone Mountain road. She has just about every type of firing system at her facility, and has done a bit with fire clays.

[Grem]

Go to Aardvark pottery supplies down on Steptoe. It is across Boulder Highway off Tropicana. They should have kiln supplies that will work. Wood fire clay bodies are rated at cone 14+ , and the kilns also need to be protected from heat. If you are in the North end of the valley you could talk to Amy Kline at Pottery West on Pioneer off Lone Mountain road. She has just about every type of firing system at her facility, and has done a bit with fire clays.

 

That's a lot of help I'll check them out for sure.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Almost forgot Clay Arts Vegas on Main street in the 18b Arts District off Charleston.

[Crazy Ivan]

I would try out some art colleges in your area. I have always had luck either getting scrap metal, used tools they are replacing, even shared ordering supplies. If they have a pottery and ceramics course (most do in my experience) go there and talk to a teacher or moderator and see if you can work something out! good luck!

-Crazy Ivan

[DonB]

I found clay! I called a guy that installs walls, evidently his business was listed as a supply store instead of a contractor but he game me the number for someone that supplies clay out here but for some reason isn't popping up on google. Problem solved.

 

Hi Grem, would much appreciate the contact info for the Fire Clay! Thanks, Don

[WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith]

Send me a PM or e-mail, I can help you with the proper products.

[DonB]

Thanks Wayne for the offer but i would really prefer to shop local on these to avoid spendy shipping fees.

 

Website keeps logging me out and won't let me send the guy here local that found a source a PM when it finally does keep me logged in apparently because I do not have enough posts?

 

Send me a PM or e-mail, I can help you with the proper products.

[SpankySmith]

You can come to my backyard and dig up all the clay you want.... in these parts it's red clay just below the sod and it goes on forever..and ever...and ever.   The bane of my existence when it comes time to have to dig a hole for any reason.  On the upside, if you sink a post in it you really don't even need cement - ain't going nowhere!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Stay away from any refractory recipy that calls for portland cement, you want "water glass"
http://ezinearticles.com/?Depression-Refractory-Mix-For-The-Backyard-Foundry.&id=85797 try this.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Portland cement is clay and lime, heated to high tempt to drive of the molecular water, then finaly grount. When you ad water a chemical reaction begines that cases it to harden. Subjecting portland cement to high tempitures drives out the mousture and causes it to crumble.