Everything Mac Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 An anvil has popped up an hours drive from me that is rather tempting. It's a 3cwt brooks by the looks of it. 37" long and 6" wide. Quite the beast. I must say I'm rather tempted if the price stays roughly where it is just now. This made me wonder - would the amateurs out there go for a bigger anvil if you could? My current Peter wright is 262lbs I can just about move it around by myself and it's an excellent anvil. At what point does the size stop mattering? I can do everything I'd need to do and more on my anvil, so I don't "need" a bigger one. But it is tempting. Any thoughts? Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayakersteve Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Unless I could get for great price, I wouldn't pursue as an amature. I have a 260 pound JHM and it is by far, more than I will ever need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 262 pounds is a respectable size, but there is something else that you should consider . That is rebound. The heavier the anvil the more force of the hammer blow is absorbed/stored into the anvil which then, depending on the quality of the anvil, may be available to provide hammer rebound. Brooks anvils are good anvils I had a smaller one for years that I used for demonstrating and traveling. That anvil had good rebound characteristics for an anvil of it's size. I know that hammer technique is a controversial subject in this forum but I beleve that it is safe to say that the use hammer rebound is an important part of hammer technique . That being the case, it is highly desireable to own and us an anvil which has the best rebound available. I think that it might be worth while to look at that Brooks from the standpoint of rebound . I have a 300 pound Peter Wright which has respectable rebound but , If I were a bit younger, I would be looking for an anvil 300-350 pounds with exceptional rebound. Properly used rebound gives back some of what you put into the anvil reducing the effort of the upswing. This can equate to reduced stress and happy forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I'd love to up grade my 70 lb anvil to something the size of the one you have, but theres not too much I can't do on it. My current plan is to fab a striking anvil and believe that paired with my current anvil should actually meet most of my needs. I do agree with knots though and can tell my smaller anvil is absording some of the energy from my blows. As an amateur right now is a matter of whats practical for my needs. What I think I'd really like is a large swage block. If I had a 262 lb anvil already, I think thats where I'd be tempted to spend my $. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 While anvil envy (a term I coined many years ago on anvilfire and now on T shirts!) is endemic to blacksmiths; the anvil you have is already at the upper end for the typical professional shop in days of yore. Larger ones tended to be used in industry or for special uses. One of the great American smiths worked his whole career on an anvil about 1CWT smaller than the one you already have! If your current anvil is solidly mounted and has good rebound the differential moving up to a larger one will be fairly low. So if you have the money and room in the shop and want the bragging rights *get* *it*! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 If you judge that the price is right, you can always purchase an anvil as an investment for resale. Sayings and Cornpone " There are two places where socialism will work: In Heaven, where it is not needed; and in Hell, where they already have it." Churchill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share Posted September 27, 2013 Excellent comments as per usual chaps. Current anvil is a Peter wright, and the rebound is very good 80-90% I'd say. I did a thread about it some time ago when I got it, there's a few nasty rust pits on the face but it is in excellent overall condition. There is *just* enough space for it in the shop. If the price stays low I'll give it a go. I hate not bidding on decent tools on eBay under the assumption that they will go for a fortune, only to see them sell for next to nothing. Eddie, I was lucky with a 12" swage block a few months back. Managed to pick it up for £100 which is a decent price over here. It's already coming in very handy for a few bits and bobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I had a 250kg anvil when I started and then later swapped for my 77kg brooks as I also couldn't move the thing arround. Best swap I ever did - the 77kg brooks is the perfect size for my needs as an amature artist blacksmith. Am getting another 200 plus kg anvil soon just for display purposes. Did never understand this rebound thing with forging though. How does a hammer "rebound" off hot malleble steel? Does not make mechanical sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 One of the great American smiths worked his whole career on an anvil about 1CWT smaller than the one you already have! Anvilitis affects mostly noobs who think if they get a 400lb monster the added mass will transform them into a human power hammer. I got tired of navigating around my 500lb'er so I sold it after 35 some years because it didn't move the material any better than my 165 and I don't do heavy striking at the anvil anymore aside from not having employees...... :lol: ..... If you can get a good deal on a biggie, by all means BUY IT.......... B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Well I am a bit more mellow since my main shop anvil is 515# and the backup 410#; but as an example: I didn't move my main shop anvil down to my rental house 3 hours away as I couldn't move it to places where I could forge. I did move a 134# and a 163# anvil(s) that go on the road when I want to smith---been doing a regular smithing class at an SCA A&S weekly meeting lately---they are interested enough to help me load/unload/load/unload. Now I still get the "itch" everytime I see one of the 750# West anvils, (I know of two in NM!); but I won't start twitching until I see one for way too low a price! There is a class of person who believes that fancy tools will make them a better smith than just putting time in practicing with simpler tools. I like these folks as a good number of them will get discouraged when they discover that 100 hours working with a $5 hammer will do more for them than 5 hours working with a $100 hammer. Some of them will then sell out and allow me to buy fancier equipment at fire sale prices... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 How do you like that JHM, Steve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wroughton Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 What Frank T. said. You can decide whether it's too much of an anvil for you and your purposes. If it's a deal and you have the scratch to pony up for it I fail to understand why we're not looking at a picture of it in the back of your truck. Part of running a profitable smithy is evaluating potential new (to you) equipment for use or resale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorsHammer82 Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahoo2 Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Did never understand this rebound thing with forging though. How does a hammer "rebound" off hot malleble steel? Does not make mechanical sense to me. Rebound is an indicator of how much energy the anvil itself is absorbing, one of dozens of losses that eat away at the power in every swing of the hammer. A true forging blow should deform and move the hot metal through the full profile, not just smear the surface on the top and bottom which is what tends to happen with poor rebound,loose anvils and poor technique. If you start a new topic I am sure there will be plenty of discussion. I like the extra space on a larger anvil if I am working with a partner and using handled tools. If I had to choose between a #350 and an extra swage blocks, I would choose the blocks, I jig and clamp on the blocks a lot, the hole I realise at the last minute that I need to use, is always covered by part of the jig. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 The best way I can describe rebound on an anvil is this. When swung the hammer carries energy. The anvil will either absorb that energy or reject the energy transfering it back into the hammer as rebound. When hot metal is placed in between and struck with the hammer the energy can either go into the anvil or go into the work. The more force that is tranfered into the work the more metal moved. I've worked on dead stuff and a good live anvil and the difference is very noticable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 According to mathematics, bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly. According to the same mathematics, a gigantic anvil makes you sleep better at night. Sure, you can do wanders with a small anvil.... but will you be able to sleep at night? Will the angels weep and little children go hungry if you pass this anvil up? I'm not saying they will, but do you want to risk it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevan Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 The best way I can describe rebound on an anvil is this. When swung the hammer carries energy. The anvil will either absorb that energy or reject the energy transfering it back into the hammer as rebound. When hot metal is placed in between and struck with the hammer the energy can either go into the anvil or go into the work. The more force that is tranfered into the work the more metal moved. I've worked on dead stuff and a good live anvil and the difference is very noticable. Excellent, understandable explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 However the law of diminishing returns holds true for this as well as other things in blacksmithing. After a certain point the increase in efficiency per increase in weight drops probably best shown on the graphs produced for weights of powerhammer anvils vs weight of the head---for them IIRC it was about 15 to 1. So going from a 50# anvil to a 150# anvil you will notice a great increase in efficiency; however going from 260# anvil to a 360# anvil the increase will be much less. As for weeping angels---just don't blink! Depending on the price that cash might better be put into a powerhammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Thanks for the explanation on rebound - makes sense now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 Well it went for a bargain price but I'm sad to say I didn't go for it. The Cash has had to be ploughed into my car instead. It's for the best, my sensible head says that I barely had the space and shifting it when I move house would have been a nightmare. I wouldn't mind picking up a similar cast steel anvil with a weight close to my PW. I wonder then, what is the "optimal" weight? I'm guessing that is as subjective a question as "what is the best anvil?" ... All the best Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusb Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Everytime I get anvil fever (See a 500+ pounder for a decent price) I tell myself "A bigger anvil wont make me a better blacksmith" That line usually calms the fever down. I was very lucky to find two nice 300 pound anvils, and with out a striker, I cant see needing a bigger one I figure money is better spent on training and other tools that allow one man to acomplish a two man job. On a side note, the thought of spending 2000 to 3000 dollars on 1 anvil and letting someone else swing a very large hammer at it, doesnt sound like a good time to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayakersteve Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 @Charles - I really like the JHM. It's the competitor and has been a great worker so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share Posted September 29, 2013 Everytime I get anvil fever (See a 500+ pounder for a decent price) I tell myself "A bigger anvil wont make me a better blacksmith" That line usually calms the fever down. I was very lucky to find two nice 300 pound anvils, and with out a striker, I cant see needing a bigger one I figure money is better spent on training and other tools that allow one man to acomplish a two man job. On a side note, the thought of spending 2000 to 3000 dollars on 1 anvil and letting someone else swing a very large hammer at it, doesnt sound like a good time to me! Wise words. I wouldn't normally consider buying a "new" anvil but this one was ticked all the boxes. It's rare to see anvils for sale over here of that size and quality. You get a few 2 - 2.5cwt every now and then but the most common are the brooks 1cwt anvils. As well as their 1 1/4 and 1 1/2cwt from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Thanks Steve, I own two of their farrier anvils, a 150# and a 75# faces are bit softer than I'd like but otherwise they're work horses. Thinking about making a set ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 the anvil you have is already at the upper end for the typical professional shop in days of yore. Larger ones tended to be used in industry or for special uses. Mine is a 375# Budden, from a UP copper mine. It's a big piece of metal, with the way my shop is arranged I don't have any trouble maneuvering around it, but I'm not looking forward to the inevitable day when I move and need to take my whole workshop with me (that'll be a U-Haul or two to itself). That being said, if the price was right I'd get a slightly heavier one if it was a double horn, to supplement my Budden, probably not replace it. I know a guy with a 1000# anvil, I think it's a Refflinghaus, the face is like a table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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