Carbon Steel

[Grem]

So I have a scrap yard really close to my house that sells iron for .25 a pound. This would allow me to melt down the scrap metal and make my own bars to work with.

My issue, and I'm hoping someone here might be able to shed a little light for me, is being able to tell what the carbon content is.

 

How would I be able to tell what grade steel I'm working with is?

How would I add or remove carbon so I could control what grade I'm working with?

 

[Steve Sells]

Gas chromotograph is a good start, also get an Oxygen lance. What metalurgical training do you have?  remelting  and casting steel is not a beginner project...

[Grem]

Well actually I'm just getting into this, but it seems like it would be a good idea to be able to control what steel I'm working with. The whole idea I'm getting into this for the tradition of starting with a pile of iron and taking a hammer to it.

But I have no idea how to go about adding carbon to get a harder steel, or removing it to get a softer one.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

XXXX of a lot easier to just buy bar stock, or scrap close to the size needed. Melting, casting, rolling/forming into bars = a whole lotta time and $$$$. If you need a specific carbon content, you buy new known material. Mystery metal is just that, a mystery. Without expensive test equipmet, or paying to have it tested, you have no way to determine what is in it. New price isn't really that bad for steel, copper, brass, and stainless are a different story

 

Are you talking about Silver Dollar Recycling off the 15 out by the speedway?

[Grem]

No actually I'm close to SA Recycling on like Main and Oakey. I got pretty much a makeshift anvil for $35, it's a 150lb sheet of machine grade steel.

where would I buy these metals? I'm guessing small plates of steel isn't really something that like a Home depot would just have sitting around?

[Steve Sells]

Look around the site.  in the knife section is a ref section with supplier lists for higher carbon steels.  but many smithing projets dont need high carbon.

[Grem]

I'll take a look.

[Timothy Miller]

Visit your local welding shop and ask for some cut offs.  Bring beer or doughnuts and coffee for trade.  You want hot rolled steel for non tool stuff.  High carbon steel is a whole other ball game and requires additional skills to work correctly.  

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Curtis Steel is one in Las Vegas.  MSC has decent prices on tool steels, they are a big machine shop supplier, and ship.

 

Search the forums for junkyard steels, lots of info on what to look for.

[Grem]

I appreciate the advice!

I'm sure I'll have all kinds of questions, but it's just been a passion and I'm doing it.

[ThomasPowers]

You should be able to melt steel in your own back yard.  It will end up costing 10 times or more what buying steel new would and not be nearly as good until you have several years of practice and some pricey equipment!

 

And I hate to tell you this but even in the early iron age smiths would *BUY* their metal from the folks who smelted it or traders who did likewise---"currency bars" are a common find in iron age digs!  (there were a couple of isolated norse farmsteads where the people both smelted and forged on-site; but this is the exception that proves the rule.)

 

If you want to add carbon to a lower carbon steel I suggest you read: "The Cementation of Iron and Steel" for an exhaustive study of various processes.  Also "Steelmaking before Bessemer, vol 1 Blister steel, vol 2 Crucible steel"

 

And if you are going "traditional" study up on real wrought iron---the material the smiths used from the start of the iron age until it slowly tapered off after 1850's with the invention of the Bessemer process.

[Grem]

I understand it'll cost more, I'm not doing this to save money really, I'm doing it because I like the tradition of starting with scrap or XXXXX even iron ore. If I could find out of the dirt iron ore and use that I totally would.

 

Watch the language and please read the ToS before posting again

[Frosty]

Grem: There isn't a "tradition" of starting with scrap. Until steel became so cheap it turned into a throw away material there really wasn't such a thing as scrap till it was so degraded as to be unsalvagable. Trying to make a combination melt and predict a carbon content is so far above a beginner level I don't really know what to say. In modern mills I believe they just oxy lance it to reduce it to "pure" iron and add carbon to spec. An oxy lance doesn't remove alloy metals so modern steels can be unpredictable on some counts.

 

Please don't think we're trying to discourage you, we all started out with unrealistic dreams, heck I still have unrealistic dreams. You're just biting off so much more than you can chew it's almost beyond words. Setting yourself up for failure isn't a good way to begin any craft.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Grem]

No and I get that, I can wrap my head around things quite well, but they were just answers I could find in anything I was reading about it. I know that there are going to be quite a few things I'll learn through just doing this, I just figured I would ask and see if it was an easy answer or something I shouldn't do immediately.
I'm not by any means discouraged, and having unrealistic dreams just gives me something to spend my time working towards.


I've found this forum quite helpful

[ThomasPowers]

The "tradition" of starting with ore is about 25-30 years old.  The tradition of buying your metal from folks who specialize in smelting is a bit over 3000 years old.  The tradition of a bladesmith doing everything from forging to hilting as "sole Authorship" is a modern thing too.

 

Historically the various steps were different guilds, (forging, polishing, hilting, scabbard making, etc)  You didn't have the luxury of training for a decade or more in each different crafts and owning the tools of each craft and letting the expensive tools of one craft sit around non-productive while you were doing another craft.  

 

Look into "traditional" japanese swordmaking, all the steps are done by different experts in their craft.   Also getting in the way of sole authorship was the fact that a blacksmith shop would have had a bunch of people working in it, apprentices, journeymen, shoot sometimes even day labour.  The single smith shop was as accurate as going into a cardiac surgical suite and having only the surgeon there.

 

My area of interest for a bit over 30 years now is in historical smithing especially Renaissance and earlier---I consider the 18th and 19th centuries *modern*----I'd be happy to suggest books to you if you want to delve into "tradition"---like when they added coal to the possible fuel list alongside of charcoal (High to late Middle Ages, "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel, Gies & Gies)  Or the early uses of more carbon in blades. "The Celtic Sword", Pleiner; great metallurgical info!)

 

However PLEASE don't base your opinions on movies, fiction books or video games!  PLEASE!

[Dodge]

Another thing to consider is safety. Molten steel pours at temps upwards of 3000ºf or more. You need a plan B, C and D if something goes wrong, because it will go wrong very fast and there is not much on this earth (at least within arms reach) that will quench 3000º before it melts through safety shoes, flesh, bone etc. Poured on concrete would most certainly cause violent spaulting(sp?) (trapped moisture in the concrete expand and causes it to explode.) Not to mention the cost of hospitalization, loss of income, bills, etc. It could be some astronomically priced (and possibly poor quality) steel in the end. PLEASE be careful!!

[Rich Hale]

Recently in the forums Basher posted a thread about makeing knives from ore and included a lot of pics that may give you a heads up on wot the process is and how it happens. If I remember correctly they did not really say alot about selecting the ore before the start. I beleive he does this class yearly and you may send him a note to ask about a student spot in a future class, Start saving for the air fare and expenses.

In the mean time, as you mentioned. if you spend time at the anvil forgein some of the answers will appear. Expect a couple of years work at real basic skills to get a good start. That is if you spend long hours/weeks. in the shop.

[ThomasPowers]

You can arrange for ore to blade classes on this side of the pond as well; I'd talk with Ric Furrer and  perhaps start with Ric's European Steel Making class: "four ways of making steel"  see http://www.doorcountyforgeworks.com/Class_Schedule.html

 

Note that such classes will be a much better return for your money *IF* you already know basic blacksmithing!

 

Note that such classes are not cheap either, consider the cost of a week long class for a small number of people with a leading expert in *any* field!

[Nobody Special]

I love ferrous metals. Iron is where it's at for me, but if you want to cast, it's much easier to start in something like aluminum or bronze. It'll give you some of the basic elements of casting metal that'll you'll need for the much more difficult task of pouring cast iron or molten iron.  And a lot of other metals are "forged", copper, brass, bronze, aluminum.............you get the idea.

 

Key to learning casting is finding somebody that does casting and is willing to teach you.  It helps a lot in preventing mistakes and SEVERE safety hazards. Such as metal fume poisoning, molten metal burns, fire, missing eyebrows, etc. Finding teachers and mentors is extremely important to learning metalwork.

 

Making steel is hard as all get out, even if you've studied up, have resources like good ore available and "think" you know what your doing. Don't believe me? Search for "bloom" in the forums and find my last failed attempt. Or wait three or four months and catch the next one.

 

Mentorship. Work. Repeat.

[Grem]

Yes I saw the knife making section and started reading last night.

[Frosty]

IIFC Basher bought the magnetite processed from a Swedish supplier but I don't recall where the hematite came from though I think he said.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Ric Furrer]

The "tradition" of starting with ore is about 25-30 years old.  The tradition of buying your metal from folks who specialize in smelting is a bit over 3000 years old.  The tradition of a bladesmith doing everything from forging to hilting as "sole Authorship" is a modern thing too.

 

Historically the various steps were different guilds, (forging, polishing, hilting, scabbard making, etc)  You didn't have the luxury of training for a decade or more in each different crafts and owning the tools of each craft and letting the expensive tools of one craft sit around non-productive while you were doing another craft.  

 

Look into "traditional" japanese swordmaking, all the steps are done by different experts in their craft.   Also getting in the way of sole authorship was the fact that a blacksmith shop would have had a bunch of people working in it, apprentices, journeymen, shoot sometimes even day labour.  The single smith shop was as accurate as going into a cardiac surgical suite and having only the surgeon there.

 

My area of interest for a bit over 30 years now is in historical smithing especially Renaissance and earlier---I consider the 18th and 19th centuries *modern*----I'd be happy to suggest books to you if you want to delve into "tradition"---like when they added coal to the possible fuel list alongside of charcoal (High to late Middle Ages, "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel, Gies & Gies)  Or the early uses of more carbon in blades. "The Celtic Sword", Pleiner; great metallurgical info!)

 

However PLEASE don't base your opinions on movies, fiction books or video games!  PLEASE!

 

As Thomas Says.

 

Ric

[Grem]

I guess what I really need is someone locally that can show me this stuff.

I have a basic idea of everything, though I haven't actually done much. I'm at the point where I need to gather everything and just do it.

[Sweany]

google steel making

google bessemer process,

google making steel from ore

google 

Making Steel in the Forge
Louis Mills

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

There was an episode on the Woodwright's Shop many years ago (early 80's?) where Roy Underhill made an iron ingot from ore. With the wonders of the internet you might be able to find it.