Im cheating and i know it :-P

[Savage]

So im officially a cheater, no matter how many times i tried i kept failing on forging them tongs and as much as id hate to do it ive decided to mark out 2 tong halfs on a piece 1inch flat that i will be plasmer cutting tommorow at work. I know people may say that practice is the key and yes it is but i need a pair asap and i got a few knives im meant to be finishing for someone so i dont much free time to practice making tongs. Tell me what you think.

[jmccustomknives]

Nothing wrong with cheating if you don't get caught. ;)   For me time is money, I could spend a day doing things the old way or an hour "cheating". :ph34r:

[John McPherson]

Don't feel ashamed, or alone. Items for sale at the last ABANA conference included plasma cut blanks for various tongs, bells, bottle openers, hinges, etc. 

 

Learning to make your own tongs is a valuable educational exercise, and can provide some measure of personal satisfaction. But it takes time away from other things, here and now.

 

Making knives or other products for sale is where the money is. Plus, you and the customer are satisfied.

[Eddie Mullins]

I kind of get caught up in this a little myself, for example it somehow seems like mig welding is cheating, not traditional, but its a tool I have available and is incorporated into other traditional techniques. If I had a plasma cutter, I'd probably make use of it, particularly if I was doing production work. Tongs have been a chalange but I learn from them and have no time deadlines (and no plasma cutter), so I hammer away and add to the scrap pile as needed LOL.

[ThomasPowers]

If someone tells you a blacksmith should forge all their own tools in the traditional way; remind them that a blacksmith should have served a 7 year apprenticeship with their room and board supplied by the Master.  (then ask if they hand forged their triphammer and blower!)

 

Me I can make a good pattern welded billet in the time it takes me to make a fair set of tongs and I have bought enough tongs at $5 a pop to do me well in the shop.  (Save for that Titanium pair of tongs I picked up at Quad-State for $10...)

[Frosty]

The true tradition of the blacksmith in the 21st. century sits in an air conditioned room keeping track of the CNC work on monitors while sipping a Jolt cola, Mtn. Dew, etc. wearing a shirt with six colored pens. and such. In many cases I'll bet the only calluses to be found are on finger tips and where the joystick rubs.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Savage]

Wow didnt expect those replies, ive always been the kind of person to keep trying but man those tongs are not easy.

[Alan Evans]

Skill, Technique and technology are all tools to serve. No morality in process. Appropriate process for the product is all. Plasma cut tongs from wrought iron and you will be making a weak tool. Plasma cut mild steel no problem from that point of view.

 

Just be aware who is getting cheated.

 

Just out of interest, keep a note of the time you take over the process to mark out, setup the plasma,  cut out then grind the joint (you will still have to joggle the jaw somehow otherwise you will be making a pair of shears) and round up and smooth the reins and then paint pen that time on the wall as an awful warning.  :) When you get around to hot forging a few pairs of tongs, compare the time (two or three heats by hand hammer) it takes to hot forge a jaw and joint plate hot punch the pivot and a couple more heats to upset and shut on a bit of 3/8" round for the rein. Compare the making time and factor in the pleasure you had from both the making processes and with which you pick the two types up thereafter. 

 

If you are going to use fabrication tools and processes why not consider working to their strengths rather than trying to reproduce a forged form by removing metal?Strikes me as very time consuming and inefficient.

 

If speed is of the essence to achieve a pair of tongs; cut and arc weld two pieces of flat to form the offset for each jaw/joint and arc weld on a bit of round for a rein...

 

Then do what Thomas does and modify the ones you can buy for peanuts!

 

Alan

[yves]

You are not cheating. You are making yourself a pair of tongs.

 

Essentialy, in another thread, someone, Frosty I believe, said something to the effect that it would be cheating if a client pays you to do a job with traditional techniques, then you MIG it, hide it never say a word and cash the cheque for the traditional job. That would be cheating.

 

And by the way, would also cut me a pair and its ok to MIG ...

[Frosty]

Have you checked out the videos Chinobi posted the link for under the thread Scroll layout development? I spent a couple hours watching some several times. The smith makes tongs with only two offsets and suggests arc welding reins to bits for another technique if he doesn't have time to upset the bit ends.

 

The tong videos are well worth watching if only for themselves. His is an elegantly simple technique including a really slick tool for single heat, long upsets on long stock without bending.

 

Bring a snack find a comfy chair and settle in for some really educational viewing.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Savage]

I shall watch them tonight if the fiance allows me lol, i am lucky to have a set up and ready to go plasmer cutter and thus cut out the two blanks in less than 2 minutes, i will be hot punching the holes in my small forge and bending the jaws to make them suit for grabing flat steel, and might even draw out the handle parts to make it abit longger. If so i will have to cut out an opening at the rear of my forge for a rear exit.

[Sam Salvati]

A craftsman can make 100 just alike or each as different as the next, an artist can make 100 all different.

[Savage]

True

[Sam Salvati]

it takes a long time to become a craftsman.

[MLMartin]

If you really need tongs in a soon I would just buy commercially made ones. There are a hand full of company's that forge very nice ones. Grant Sarver us to make wonderful tongs in very fancy presses.

Sadly after he passed and his company was bought by some one ells the quality dropped a great deal. 

[Savage]

And i bet the time it would take to get a pair sent to me i could have learnt how to forge a pair. No worries im almost done and its costed me nothing so far, so im happy.

[thingmaker3]

I just went and looked up the word "cheating" in a couple different places. None of the definitions I found apply here. But then I've got 5 tongs made from 10 plasma cut blanks I bought online, so my opinion may be biased.

[Alan Evans]

Back to the original post...as interesting as the morality/philosophy discussion is....In what way did you fail at the forging?

 

Maybe a blacksmithing forum could help with that problem?

 

My 40 odd year memory of my first tong forging attempts were dogged by trying to bring the hammer down consistently half on and half off the anvil...whilst keeping the work piece in the same place to get a clean shoulder.

 

Too much to think about for my brain, and my left arm was not strong (or independent) enough to keep the workpiece in one place especially as the other side of my body was flailing around with a hammer.

 

Once I realised that I could lock my left hand to my hip which kept the workpiece in a fixed position it halved the problem (and the  head work) and I could then concentrate on the hammer control. It may help you...

 

Alan

[Timothy Miller]

As a full time smith plasma cutting seems slow and difficult not to mention all of the grinding to get the slag and rough edges off.  I can with the (help of a power hammer) forge simple tongs in about 25 min.  If I had to do it by hand it would take me about an hour.  I don't think its cheating it is avoiding necessary skills you will need down the line though. 

[Savage]

It was rather fas to cut out and didnt leave much slag to chip off.

[Timothy Miller]

It was rather fas to cut out and didnt leave much slag to chip off.

Did you time it? How long did it take you to get to the point of shaping them in the forge?  How long did it take you to lay out the shape before you started cutting?

[Larry H]

I've found short of "forging" a forge weld, there isn't cheating. Smiths through out time did what they had to do to get the job done as quickly and efficiently as possible, you will find at times you will make a quick tool for single use out of mild steel just  to get what you need to do, done.

[Solano]

I guess as long as you are happy thats the goal. I just started in this craft after a life of welding and fabricating and have all the tools to make tongs that way. My goal is to make them like the masters someday, so every chance I get I will make a pair, and when I get this chicken pickin carpenter work done at home, Im going to keep after the "deliberate practice".

 

[Bentiron1946]

There are times when I look back and see times when I was condemned heavily for not being a "traditional" smith, I didn't do it like they used to. I liked to make art and the anvil and forge got me what I wanted. I couldn't get what I wanted with casting or cutting up metal but I could get there only by forging. There were two schools of though in the Phoenix Metro community of smiths in the 70s when the ABANA chapter here was formed and the school of thought I was somewhat loosely associated with was not at all welcome because we were not traditionalist. We would use an arc welder to make a join and then cover it with a clip or then drill holes for decorative rivets. You would have thought that we were worshiping at the alter of Baal. Yes, I could and did do traditional clips on some scroll work but it was much faster to tack weld the whole grille together first and then put the clips on. I could make tongs but like Thomas it was a lot easier to stop a few antique stores, the flea market or garage sales and get them for a few dollars each than spend the time making them.
Sometimes I think we need to realize that if we were to take a blacksmith from 1860 and transplant him to 2013 he would soon ditch his forge and take a CNC for his preferred method of metal work, he rather be in an air conditioned room getting calluses on his hand from working a joy stick than from the handle of a hammer. Do what you want when working your metal and don't feel guilty about it, leave that to the other person.

[Savage]

Wow alot of answers i didnt expect, thanx guys, and another reason for me feeling guilty was because i always try my best to do things the hardest and slowest way to gain skill and most importantly patience, being a big fishing person helps with that too. I try to put myself in the blackswith way of doing things but clearly that isnt 100 percent possible, but one can only attempt it.