CleetisMorgan Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I have a chance to pick up a 130 lb PW anvil for cheap, and would like to turn it into a restoration project that I would give away to a budding smith. I read a lot of stick welding anvils here, and even hard facing mig wire, etc. I am not a professional welder, but we do a lot of mig and tig in the shop. Is there any advantage or disadvantage to tig welding an anvil? Is preheating still required when I can use the foot pedal to ease into the weld? I have missle rod and nyrod filler in the shop--what would be a better filler? So many questions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 There was a post a few years ago about a fellow who welded up the edges and chisel cuts in an anvil by tig welding spring steel 1095 onto the anvil. It looked great when he was done. I cant say I remember him ever talking about how it held up over time. Hopefully he will speak up. Regardless of the type of steel used to repair an anvil it needs to be pre heated and post heated and cooled slowly.Some people will say they did not bother and its fine to weld on a cold anvil. They are wrong. Have some people had good results doing this? Yes I am sure it has happened some. But the majority of welding done on a cold anvil has caused cracking. Industrial practices call for pre heat and post heat on welding tool steel most of the time. Even though you can roll up the heat slower with a tig than stick welding the heating speed is still much to fast for tool steel. I am confident in saying pre heat and post heat is mandatory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wroughton Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Hello Cleetis, You should preheat, and if you have a mig welder you might prefer that. Tig will work but it will be slow unless your anvil isn't in too bad of shape to start. Some would suggest hard facing rod, but for simplicity I use standard mig wire equivalent to 7018 stick. I use the anvils I have repaired and built and they hold up fine, don't crack away from the fix and aren't hard on my hammers when I or someone else in the shop doesn't quite make the connection on their swing. Hard facing, by nature, can be a nightmare to grind flush also. You can use large pieces of copper busbar to hold or clamp to the anvil edges to build them up. The weld won't weld to the copper so it acts like a dam to make a great, tight corner. How bad is it anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Dave Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I had welded a piece of metal onto the side of my anvil for horseshoeing. I got some welding rod from my local welding school, preheated the anvil, and the weld has held for 20 years. Unfortunately, I don't remember what welding rod I used. I have an old Lincoln 220 AC welder. I would post heat the anvil if I did this procedure today. I have hardfaced farm equipment, and it doesn't seem like that type of welding rod is designed for the purposes you want in a welding rod. Good luck and keep us informed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Amos Tucker uses a single layer of S7 wire applied with TIG after building up broken spots with solid MIG wire. He had a tutorial on how he does it in the B.O.L.T.S. newsletter. Dang! I checked it right before I posted the link. Sorry, now all I get is a bug warning when I try to go there. The address was called blacksmithsanvil.com, and they are the eastern NC subchapter of NCABANA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilpr Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I use S7 rod for the tig welder when facing or repairing an anvil, high impact tool steel, works very well and grinds down fine with a rough grit on the angle grinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleetisMorgan Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 That's all great info!! Contacted the guy to send over a pic of the damage. I do have mig, tig, or stick available. I do hard facing on fumigation knives, and yes, I dread the thought of grinding it! I don't want anything ultimately hard--just a good usable anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Amos Tucker uses S7 TIG wire after building up with MIG. Here is how he does it in the B.O.L.T.S. newsletter. http://theblacksmithsanvil.com/wp/?p=1961 link doesn't work for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric sprado Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Lincoln 11018M Electrode is the cats meow for anvil buildup. Not brittle and extremely tough. I believe that Bill Apple in Seattle,who brings repaired anvils to our NWBA conferences uses it too!! Never any complaints about anvils he's sold!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Dave Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Mr Morgan or Others: Off the subject a little, I hard faced an arena rake with a comb about 7 feet wide. It's dragged behind a tractor. It had about 42 teeth for me to hard face and I used Stoody 35 rod, using a Lincoln 220 AC welder. When I went to grind on it to remove some weld that got to close to a spot, I found it ground off fairly easily. I was surprised and it seemed to grind off as easily as mild steel. This rod is for abrasive issues. But, I thought it would be hard to grind off. Any ideas why it seemed so easy to grind off, or does it work harden? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleetisMorgan Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Ok--here is the pic. Let me know what the best option is here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleetisMorgan Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 SoCal Dave, when I hard face my fumigation knives with missile rod, I can grind off the welds fairly easily after about 30 hours in the ground, 13 inches deep. I don't know why, but if I have to grind a fresh weld it's tough. A work-worn weld will grind easier. But like I said, I'm a farmer not a metallurgist (: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I would not pay more than 50$ for that anvil. And even that much is pretty high. That anvil has had very bad fails to the face. The whole face may break loose while trying to repair it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleetisMorgan Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 Hmmmm. I thought I was getting a good deal at $100!! I'll have to counter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 100 - 200 lb Peter Wright anvils are pretty common in North America. Maybe the most common of anvils here. It should not be hard to find another one like it in better shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleetisMorgan Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 That's true--I have 6 other PW's ranging from 100-191 lbs. I still want to try and fix this one, though. I'll see how low he will go!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefarm39 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Cleetis, i'll watch your progress with interest, as I have one in the works as well. I don't have a Tig setup, so I'll be doing mine with a stick machine. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I would say from my experience in welding that the welding method is not important just pre and post heat and using the correct rod. The pre and post heat are essential in stress relieving the new from the old. The differing cooling rates are what causes the stress. I don't have a tig big enough to weld an anvil.It wouldn't get penetration so I stick or MIG the anvils I repair. If you have a tig big enough then preheat to around 400 to 450 and go to town. Post heat back to that temp and wrap in kaowool or similar and wait a day or two then gtind it down. Be sure to go back beyond the obvious cracks to make sur eyou have gotten them all. I have on in the shop where I apparently missed it and it has a dead spot, it is a small spot but it is annoying knowing it is there. one day when I have a few days I will cut it out and do it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I have done some challenging welding jobs, and preheat has done great. This is a must. Admittedly, I have never welded up already hard dies with tool steel filler. It certainly can be done. As for your job, another suggestion is to clean up the weld area. Do not weld over dirt, scale, rust, cracks, etc. Grind down to clean metal. If you cannot find clean metal, well, than that's the risk you take when buying an anvil in that shape for $100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I have repaired several anvils now and using TIG. It is the welding process I have always used for anvil repair. I like the control and the ability to build up areas and control the heat imput as I go. I always preheat to at least 300 dergrees. If by missle rod you mean 309L stainless filler, this what I use for a build up on areas like yours, but first I like to put a pass of Nickle 99 down first then the stainless to build it up. I like the 309 choice because it is a recommended filler for tool steel repair and carbon steel to stainless welding along with 312 filler rod. It also is fairly hard ,as welded and but not so hard it might crack while hammering on it. It is although susceptible to hammer dings. Alot of people have there opinions on what you should do or shouldn't do, but I have had very good success with this procedure and no complantants. If I am doing small touch up to fill in hammer dings I will use a E70S-2 filler and a light preheat on the face. By the way I also have a Peter Wright anvil which was in the same shape as the one your looking at and it welded up just fine and gets used alot. According to my Anvils of America book mine is from the Civil War time era. I paid $125 for it and am glad to have it! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleetisMorgan Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 Yes sir, 309L stainless filler is what I have. I believe I will pick up some Nickel 99 tomorrow--that sounds like a good idea. What does a "light" preheat mean to fill in hammer dings? I don't give up easily, as it's not about the $, it's about me learning to to do something beneficial and putting an anvil back into service!! Thanks for understanding that...(: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Yes sir, 309L stainless filler is what I have. I believe I will pick up some Nickel 99 tomorrow--that sounds like a good idea. What does a "light" preheat mean to fill in hammer dings? I don't give up easily, as it's not about the $, it's about me learning to to do something beneficial and putting an anvil back into service!! Thanks for understanding that...(: By a light pre heat like I mean 150 degrees or higher to run the moisture out of it. Depending on the humidity and dew point where you are at. When you put heat to a heavy piece of metal, moisture will form on the surface. When the tempeture gets to 150 to 200 degrees the surface it hot enough to keep the moisture from forming and this is what sometimes causes porosity in welds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleetisMorgan Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 Well, I picked her up this morning, and stayed in the shop a couple hours after work. This is what she looks like now. In Saturday I'll take a deep breath, preheat, and have at it. You gotta start somewhere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Wow. She's sure seen better days!! Can't wait to see the "after" pics!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Nice prep. When you start to lay in your first pass with the nickle 99 and if you are getting alot of porosity. You are to hot. With the first pass I suggest keeping the heat down and don't dip your rod in the puddle. In stead lay the rod on the leading edge of your puddle, continuously feeding it into the puddle, and osolate your torch side to side a little as you progress forward. This is the same technique you would use for putting in a TIG root pass in pipe. If you do get some porosity don't worry grind it and when you put your next pass in with the 309, the porosity should boil out. You can use the dip technique on this pass if you like. If it pops and explodes, again your to hot. Just back up, and if you do not have to clean your tungsten. Then run over the area leaving your rod on the leading edge of your puddle. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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