Daniel Lea (AKA 99pppo) Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Hey fellows! Here I am forging an edge tool together with Alec Steele while I was visiting him at his place in North Norfolk, England, United Kingdom. The tool was forged to finish from a piece of car axle. I directed while he struck for me; instructing how to make it at the same time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo6wTWRvbnM&feature=youtu.be Yours - Daniel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulKrzysz Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Nice video but I have one question. Why is there to wedge in the flattener handle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 top tools do not get wedged. good times good music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 An enjoyable video as always Daniel. That flattener really does need a wedge though. Or a wire handle perhaps. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I have seen a lot of people on these online videos that don't wedge their flatters. I've never understood the logic, but this isn't the first time I've seen folks tapping the head back on. Weird. Very nice edge tool, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricko13 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Maybe it's to let the flatter find the best position when getting hit (self-aligning?) so as to not be affected by the improper angle to which it's held? Just an idea.... Nice video though! Thanks for sharing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshua.M Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 i think the reason is that the top tool handles are very prone to being struck, and it make alot more of a headache to drill out the eye than it is to just knock it out josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 There is no reasoning for the flatter being loose on the handle! The flatter was a bodge job, i needed a flatter quickly so I made it quickly...The flatter and handle were things i came up with in less than an hour total... No top tools should be wedged, though...You need to be able to remove the handle quickly so you can re work the tool. The handle also carries less vibrations and doesn't have to be cut off every time you re work the tool. It does not have a wire handle due to some of the processes i employ it for in the making of various tools needing the dexterity that is gained when using a wood handle. In conclusion.... the flatter is a bodge job, not a demonstration of a good flatter, no need to comment on it.... Please do know that I know that the handle comes loose :P ahhaaha! Happy forging! Alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulKrzysz Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Pardon my ignorance but how do you secure you're tools heads to handles if not with wedges? I am not trying to be smart my question is sincere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Olivo Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 In reference to paulky. The tools aren't secured in any perminant or semi permenant way to the handle. The tools themselves may on a rare ocasion come off the handle with a miss hit but no more then they fly out of the hand from a miss hit. It really is so that when you brake a handle (which I have done many times and sometimes right in the middle of an important operation) I can just grab any handle out of a top tool and bam same heat still working. Put that together with eas and limited time of making the handle and the tools eye and you get a lot of pluses out of this style. Its not the only way to do it but it has its advantages especialy when you use them frequently. The eye is tapered in only one direction unlike a normal hammer eye (at least mine are) and the friction along with the fact that most blows from the sledge hammer (arch of blow) tend to force the tool head onto the handle more than off helps it. The only way to really see if it works is to make one and come to your own decisions. side note I also have some earlyer top tools that I made that just have a rectangular eye that has no taper to it watsoever and these seem to work just as well. Same amount of times they fly off the handle etc.. I like the tapered hole better only because I can use the same drift I use for making hammers there for less tooling/interchangable tooling though I still have the drift from the rectangular holes, and given a pinch any of my top tool handles can be substituted for my hammer handle and with little work wedged in to make a new hammer handle. Now to the video. enjoyable watching. Thanks for sharing. few little notes. On that anvil you seem to have a tendency to hold your hand up a little high skewing your flatter hits in the video. It took a while for me to just set the flatter down and let it sit there instead of holding it in a given place/angle. Its also helpfull to roll the square peice up so that you can see the top corner sit right above the lower one as you place it on the anvil (start with your tong hand down below anvil surface and bring it up to lvl) your force will go more twords squishing the mettle then rotating it or skewing it. This is also helpfull when using hand tools to see exactly where your placing them before you strike them. and for goodness sake slow down and have fun. you two seem a bit tense. lol I still have to remind myself that I am working with a big chunk and compared to making a small ring I have a lot of time to mess around dance a hearty jig and still slowly line up each blow. whew ok that was long winded I will end with nice filming much better angles and quality than you get in a lot of other videos. Keep up the good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I firmly wedge all my top tools. hitting a tool that is not firmly held with a sledge hammer is a sure way to lose your teeth. great energy but keep safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gaddis Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Funny telling Alec Steele to slow down. Thats like telling the Mississippi river to flow uphill. Folks..It ain't gonna happen. He is wide open anytime his eyes are open. Nice video guys. But why do yall have to talk soooo strange. Come back to Mississippi and we can finish those language lessons. Carry on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Hey fellows! Here I am forging an edge tool together with Alec Steele while I was visiting him at his place in North Norfolk, England, United Kingdom. The tool was forged to finish from a piece of car axle. I directed while he struck for me; instructing how to make it at the same time: Yours - Daniel So where is it? What you have made is not an edge tool, but a hardy tool, edge tools usually have a cutting edge, Flatters usually work best when they are allowed to 'float' which is where the wire wrapped handles come in useful, also, wedged or not is a personal preferance, gripping too hard will transmit vibrations to the hand/arm so relax when using struck tools. I know you guys are new to this, and don't want to knock your enthusiasm and deter you, but please try to get the terminology and facts right so we can help others to learn and communicate in blacksmithing. The term "bodge job" does not help either, bodge is really not fit for long term purpose, and a craftsman should be ashamed to use the term when describing something they have made. Just think now everyone who sees this vid knows you happily do a bodge job, do you really want that reputation? As for the crack appearing, was it the material (you didn't state what it was or did I miss that) or could it be it was being forged at the wrong heat? I also am with Basher, all handled tools should be secure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 So where is it? What you have made is not an edge tool, but a hardy tool, edge tools usually have a cutting edge, Flatters usually work best when they are allowed to 'float' which is where the wire wrapped handles come in useful, also, wedged or not is a personal preferance, gripping too hard will transmit vibrations to the hand/arm so relax when using struck tools. I know you guys are new to this, and don't want to knock your enthusiasm and deter you, but please try to get the terminology and facts right so we can help others to learn and communicate in blacksmithing. The term "bodge job" does not help either, bodge is really not fit for long term purpose, and a craftsman should be ashamed to use the term when describing something they have made. Just think now everyone who sees this vid knows you happily do a bodge job, do you really want that reputation? As for the crack appearing, was it the material (you didn't state what it was or did I miss that) or could it be it was being forged at the wrong heat? I also am with Basher, all handled tools should be secure. Hi John, In my opinion, the term 'edge tool' does describe this fairly well. Anvil block would do it too. The reason anyone would call this an edge tool is because it is not used for the face it is so you can have good hard edges (sharp 90° edges) which are necessary for certain forging procedures. Call it what ever you want, really! So long as at the end of the day it is the same tool... It just takes a bit of yelling and chicken like miming and frantic waving of hands for someone else to know what it means ;) But I do understand your reason for wanting it to be generalised accross the blacksmithing community. In my opinion, also. "Hardy tool" is the category that this falls in and not what it is. The same way my fullers, hotcuts and swages are hardie tools! :) Please please please understand that this flatter is a piece of leaf spring welded to a club hammer face. I tried re-forging the eye so I could put in a good handle (no wedges, simply friction - Stephen Olivo described it well) but because these hammers are so badly manyfactured there was not enough material either side of the eye to reforge it. The term bodge job does describe it! I have no possible intention of this lasting me any feasable amount of time. It wont! If I wanted one to last me a longer time, I would have spent several hours making one. The fact of the matter is, I needed some flatters, so I used my imagination and I now have some flatters! I do not mind at all that they are not going to last a long time because they are tools and the amount of time I invested in the making of them is directly proportional to their success as a tool! I am not embarrassed for having done a bodge job. I would be embarrassed if I did a bodge job and expected it to be a good job though. This was something I needed in a short amount of time, so I made it real quick and it filled that need. My other flatter that is made in the same way has a plate that is mild steel! I needed a big faced flatter, I only had a mild steel plate, so I used that. There is minimal time and effort invested in the making of those flatters, I am not expecting formidable returns. The crack was not a crack. In that instance I thought it was. But it was in fact just where when cutting, Daniel must have had an 'overlapping' blow or similar What I was describing was simply a tiny flake of the cut. The atmosphere was not tense so much as fun, really! The speed was necessary in that instance. Unfortunately, from my angle I was not able to see Daniel was holding the top tool incorrectly. This was probably the third or fourth day he had ever done any directing and obviously, it is a skill that requires a little time to line up your tools well! He did well though! Goodness! Well, I am sure that all of that was gibberish...Long day at school! Now off to go do homework! I keep getting essay after essay to do... Happy forging folks! Alec Steele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I really don't think any one on here can honestly say there is not a single tool in their workshop that wasn't a quick and dirty fix to a problem that arose unexpectedly... I'm all for doing a job properly and all that, but sometimes, needs must. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Thank you for understanding, Mac! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Hi Alec, no need to get so defensive, we are all learning, and if we keep the same terminology, it won't be so confusing. Hi John, In my opinion, the term 'edge tool' does describe this fairly well. Anvil block would do it too. The reason anyone would call this an edge tool is because it is not used for the face it is so you can have good hard edges (sharp 90° edges) which are necessary for certain forging procedures. An edge tool is a cutting tool, eg knives, scythe, sickle, machete, shear and guillotine blades. And yes sometimes a clean sharp edge is used for certain forging procedures, they can also cause problems by introducing stress points. I have a couple of similar hardie tools, and they also carry a couple of raidius edge sides to reduce the potential problem Call it what ever you want, really! So long as at the end of the day it is the same tool... It just takes a bit of yelling and chicken like miming and frantic waving of hands for someone else to know what it means ;) That sounds a bit like "If you cant convince them, confuse them". But I do understand your reason for wanting it to be generalised accross the blacksmithing community. Well then please help us to conform (We are all rebels at heart, but in our case, rebels with a cause, and unity will help that cause) In my opinion, also. "Hardy tool" is the category that this falls in and not what it is. The same way my fullers, hotcuts and swages are hardie tools! :) So you do agree in the name/category.. Please please please understand that this flatter is a piece of leaf spring welded to a club hammer face. I tried re-forging the eye so I could put in a good handle (no wedges, simply friction - Stephen Olivo described it well) but because these hammers are so badly manyfactured there was not enough material either side of the eye to reforge it. The term bodge job does describe it! I have no possible intention of this lasting me any feasable amount of time. It wont! If I wanted one to last me a longer time, I would have spent several hours making one. The fact of the matter is, I needed some flatters, so I used my imagination and I now have some flatters! I do not mind at all that they are not going to last a long time because they are tools and the amount of time I invested in the making of them is directly proportional to their success as a tool! Bodge job is not a term I would use for it, you used the resources available to accomplish the end and created a working tool. It may not be pretty, but it does the job and that is what matters. As for lasting a long time, I think if I were a betting man, I would put money on that these will still be around and in use for some years to come. I am not embarrassed for having done a bodge job. I would be embarrassed if I did a bodge job and expected it to be a good job though. I would try to get rid of associating yourself in any way with a Bodge Job, think it, but pplease, not out loud, you don't want to encourage that attachment to your long term reputation, there is no shame in being proud of your work, but being proud of doing 'bodge jobs ????? This was something I needed in a short amount of time, so I made it real quick and it filled that need. My other flatter that is made in the same way has a plate that is mild steel! I needed a big faced flatter, I only had a mild steel plate, so I used that. There is minimal time and effort invested in the making of those flatters, I am not expecting formidable returns. Mission accomplished then. The crack was not a crack. In that instance I thought it was. But it was in fact just where when cutting, Daniel must have had an 'overlapping' blow or similar What I was describing was simply a tiny flake of the cut. Easily done and understandable, hindsight is great. Still looking forward to you showing me how to make the hardie hot cut etc. You are coming on fine, keep at it, and take the comments as they are meant, ie constructive critic, not as a personal knock back, all experience is good experience, and you learn more putting your mistakes/errors right than doing stuff right straight off, its called learning. Good luck with the school work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gaddis Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 What an excellent explaination! Carry on and get you homework completed before I tell your Mom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 This was posted as I replied to Alec. I really don't think any one on here can honestly say there is not a single tool in their workshop that wasn't a quick and dirty fix to a problem that arose unexpectedly... I'm all for doing a job properly and all that, but sometimes, needs must. Cheers Yep, mine too, and I have, but it does not have to be a bodge job, bodge implies unsafe and poorly done, and I certainly would not knowingly produce any such item, especially for public consumption. I have many tools that are not pretty, but the working ends are functional. Pretty can cost time when making, and time is money for the professional, and cannot be replaced by anyone, when its gone, its gone!. Don't waste it you only get one life so use it to the full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laertius Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Looks fun -- Keep up the good work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Could you post a video of the chicken like miming? IT's been a long day at work and I am feeling a bit dizzy. I think a video of chicken like miming would be excellent just now. Otherwise cool video. I also like the oldies in my shop. Well I heard the Beatles and assumed oldies anyway... I pondered making a flatter like yours but felt all the heavy abuse would bust the weld in short order. But sometimes I think too much. BUt I asked everyone to pitch and buy me a flatter fro Christmas if nothing else. And so it happened! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 John, I just want to clear up that I am not being defensive in the negative way it may be portrayed as via text. I do not have the language skills to get this over via text unfortunately. The edges are the whole purpose of this, Daniel wanted to make himself a tool with sharp edges :) I would like to know what you would call it, John!? We are both agreed on the category name ;) Once I get down to Devon, John! We will make you your hot cut! Again, sorry for coming off a bit too defensive! Writing is not my forté at the moment! Happy Forging Alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Nice video fellas! It helped me see what I was doing wrong the last time I was making a hardy. As for naming, that name seems as good as any. Anvil block is understandable as well. I just think of it as the kind of tool that Thomas refers to when he instructs the owner of a newly purchased anvil with broken down edges to make one. Sometimes, a nice sharp edge is useful, such as for a lap weld scarf. Thanks for making it. Nice shop too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 The edges are the whole purpose of this, Daniel wanted to make himself a tool with sharp edges :) I would like to know what you would call it, John!? We are both agreed on the category name ;) Square edged hardie is what I know it as, pretty self explanatory if asking someone to pass me the tool from the toolrack Once I get down to Devon, John! We will make you your hot cut! Look forward to it, Again, sorry for coming off a bit too defensive! Writing is not my forté at the moment! Happy Forging Thats OK Alec, 2.40 in the morning and with school work to do is not the best situation for clear thinking and typing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Riffe Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Dave said it all...."carry on". Analyze, improvise when required, and get the job done as you learn. You should and always go back and perfect your products or techniques; but keep moving....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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