Knife Making Log, Advanced Class 201: Damascus patterns

[Glenn]

Rich Hale
Each week at this time the management of this site allows Steve and I to present items to help makers. We fully appreciate the regular chatters for allowing us to interupt the normal evenings chat

steve sells
So far we have covered basics, Tonight Rich and I will Jump ahead to class series 200 and get some advanced things going, Damscus patterns and Mosaics we will return to basics later but for now Rich will start with his take on Mosiac domascus

Rich Hale
Thanks,This will not be for new makers,,,there are several folks that read this that are way advanced from what we have covered up til now...And again this is not a skills class if you cannot do basics or forge weld save this til then A rather simple billet i like to take 6 layers of 1084 and 5 layers of 15N20 That makes a nice contrast and both of them will make a nice knife on their
own

if you take a layer of lets say 01 and another layer out in the complete steel billet of mild steel, 1018 and weld them together the carbon average Carbon migrates and they will equal out have to consider that if billet will make a knife so I welded that billet up and cut this coupon from
one end. The dark is the 1084. The15N20 has nickel in it and is bright So that is our basic billet I have about a one inch x one inch x 60 after first weld So if I draw it our real long and cut into four pieces. I can do this, To forge weld this together You have to grind clean every surface that will weld, you can tack one end together and wire like Steve told us about last week Now think about this, Look at that pattern What if
we drew it out and got four more bars from it? They would be small we could weld them just like we did this, what would they look like? When we get wot we wish we will cut across the piece and get wot I call tiles, Like the thin coupon in first pic But leave them half inch or at least 3/8" thick But wot if we cut that first billet differently? Changes a lot. Now we need more billets. Then we could do something like this Have to make a jig to hold to cut on the diagonal with band saw, If you forge those
shapes the pattern will change a lot Will that hurt anything? Now think alot about wot would happen with any of these patterns If we just twisted it up tight then flattened out? Or did a ladder pattern? If we make it like I mentioned above we have tiles, we can weld them side to side and make a long piece of the same repeated pattern. Please click this link to knife area and look at the pattern this fine smith has done http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/31137-my-metal/ If you look at last pic he made patterned tiles and welded them together A repetitive patter all over the blade It is different but methods similar. The pattern I gave was real simpley with the four bars in the position I put them. And remember thiis could be something other than a knife, Broach etc

stuarthesmith
when you showed the billet with the triangularly cut pieces, did you use a vertical bandsaw to cut those angles?

mike-hr
Forge welding triangles... Vee shaped top and bottom tools?

Rich Hale
Yes and that is why I said you would need a jig to hold it To weld that billet i woul make a box around it from mild steel . 3/16" plate will work, completely close it in,,,put a little piece of thick paper inside and it will burn up 02 and you will not need flux...forge it all solid then grind mild off that is can weld, will cover more of that another night Just remember that every mating surface of billet needs to be ground clean first They make a spray can of non stick for welding welding shop s have it. Spray inside pieces of mild for can,,then leave parts in and weld up Mild will come off easier then Lay three tiles side by each Tack the on one side where they touch so they will stick together Weld by tapping on ends. So you are just doing two welds, l and have three tiles together Now wot if you took another billet and twisted it and layed it along those tiles and forge welded it? Now wot if you took another billet and twisted it and layed it along those tiles and forge welded it? i expllained this process to a new smith on her a while back,,,and he,,,Lone forge did this, one, I think today as I have not seen it prior Good timeing Darren I think than lets us see this better than words So wot if we took a sq piece of 1095 that will etch dark and lay along the other side for a cutting edge? Just a thought

steve sells
Some of the more basic and long lasting patterns are not out of reach of most of you Rich mentioned the ladder pattern to get that look build up your layers to
about 70 or more and leave it about half info to more thick then cut notches on both sides, to about 1/3 to 1/2 way through alternating form side to side then at
welding heat flatten it out to get teh ladder effect. There are variation onf this, for example this one is a ladder pattern as well.... think about how I got it while I type ow I did it...

I make 3 billets 50 to 100 layers twist 2 one way the third the oposit way, and I stack them on top of each other and weld NOT side by side, but on top then flatten out and as the normal ladder pattern I get that NOW if you lay them side by side and do not cut. using 5 bars or more,,, you get the Persian
One thing I add to the pwerian is I use 3 metals rather than only 2 I used 1084, L6 and wrought iron to give more color options Do not be afraid of combining other billets into one, the vikings did this over 1000 years ago the center is 7 layer billet in edge, cut like
a ladder and flatten edge up. then on each side ad twisted bars the wrap the outter edges in 600 layer to give the amount of layers and the amount of twisting will change the end result A high layer count loose uneven twist gives maiden hair a variation I used t for fun, but get orders for it using alternate layers of new steel, and drawn out scrapes of other billets of damascus I stack and weld the a tight twist gives this one going back to a basic billet, rather than hope for the besic random pattern, I drill shallow holes of various diameters before each fold. and restack and reweld, then drill ets,, the last 3 welds to get pool and eye

mike-hr
The forge weld temps on wrought vs 1084 are significantly different. do you start by having the wrought to the outside of the billet?

Steve sells
when I use mixed materials I have high heat items outside to protect the inner layers after they are mixed, its less a problem, and I watch my temps

Loneforge Blades
do you draw flat after drilling then weld

steve sells
yes then flatten again

Rich Hale
Think about wot we showed,,we showed how to make repeatable patterns in a combination of ways. Look at the work of others WE looked at a few pics from our forums and we can see how he welded tiles together repeatable patterns. This is a large maker of steel billets I found on line http://www.alabamadamascussteel.com/servlet/Categories?category=Damascus+Billets

I have seen his work and i amd not selling his work,,,I think for ome of the patterns you can take them apart by eye and see no only where they weld together but think about how each pattern is made.

steve sells
one of the reasons I paused to have you thing about how I could to the zebra pattern, is we want you to be able to do more than only what we show, use your imagination to come up with things on your own as well.

Rich Hale
I steal ideas from everywhere

steve sells
I stole a lot from my teachers

FordPrefect
so trying to get close to original Damascus is not preferred as a pattern?

steve sells
Original damascus is a crucible steel this is the Real wootz or bullat or damascus what ever name you know it by, these patterns were formed by what we call alloy banding.

mike-hr
Ford, I'm thinking folding steel was originally used to get a homogenous blend, now that good steels are available, the movement is for aesthetics

steve sells
correct Mike, also in all cases the pattern welded blades are for looks, they are no stronger or better than mono steel, and unless one first masters forge welding 100% then they will be weak and be less than a good blade.


 

[HEAP of JEEP]

I'm still working on my brother's xmas present, and things are coming along, but I ran in to an issue that I'm wondering how to correct.  In the pictures, you can see where there is a difference in the etch... it starts on the same spot on both sides, so I'm wondering if you think this is because I screwed something up in heat treating it.  I'm almost positive it isn't caused from any contaminates.  After sanding it, I cleaned it thoroughly with acetone, while wearing rubber gloves, and after drying it with a shop towel, it went right in to the acid.  So, after reading up on it, it seems like the likely cause might be me not getting an even heat during the heat treating, and I'm wondering if heat treating it again could correct it, or if it will cause more headaches.  Its just my second knife, and its just a gift to my brother who might or might not appreciate the work that went in to it, so I'm questioning if its worth even trying to correct.

[JPH]

I am no expert by any definition of the word but the difference in the etch is the result from different hardness in the two areas of the blade. In other words think of a "temper line" ... This is actually (well at least to me it is..) a very good thing as the part that is suppose to be hard is hard and the rest isn't... Nothing to worry about at all...at least I wouldn't worry about it..

JPH

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I think it looks fine since it is matching on both sides. You just need to refer to it as a two tone finish 

On another note HoJ, I would listen intently to whatever JPH has to tell you in regards to knife making. He is very humble about his skills...

[viking-sword]

JPH is absolutely correct! This is a result of your differential heat treatment. The reason you don't see this line on many of the damascus blades out there is because those blades were fully hardened before tempering.

[HEAP of JEEP]

Thanks for the info, everyone.  I went ahead and glued and pinned the scales on, and I'll just chalk this up to a lucky break.  If its actually a good thing, then now that I'm aware of it, I'll never be able to do it again. LOL.  Already started on the next billet for another xmas gift.. this one is for my step son, and was thinking about trying an actual hamone.  The only problem is time is running out, so fast, I'm not sure I want to try anything new...  The problem is, my nature is to just jump in and try something, and thus I tend to make a lot of mistakes... but that's how I learn.  I'm a hands on type of guy... what can I say?

 

But, can't say thanks enough for the time that everyone takes on this forum to share their knowledge.  Its already saved me, big time, on the learning curve.

[Shamus Blargostadt]

I think it looks great, very nice patterns.  What kind of steels did you use?  Did you use a powerhammer or good 'ol arm and hammer?   Did you weld the blade to the tang or just did your etching after the blade was shaped and didn't bother etching the tang?

 

 

[HEAP of JEEP]

5 minutes ago, Shamus Blargostadt said:

I think it looks great, very nice patterns.  What kind of steels did you use?  Did you use a powerhammer or good 'ol arm and hammer?   Did you weld the blade to the tang or just did your etching after the blade was shaped and didn't bother etching the tang?

 

 

Thanks Shamus.  Its all a learning thing for me, at this point, but for my second knife ever, I'm really pleased with how it came out.  As for my steel of choice... well....  since I'm still a super newb, I haven't invested in any known steel at this point.  I'm learning and practicing with scrap I have lying around.  For the most part, everything I'm doing early on is all old Jeep leaf springs, and whatever else I happen to grab from the scrap pile at the time.  This one is just a few layers of mild steel mixed in with the leaf spring.  For this one, I did two billets, and then laminated a piece of leaf spring between them.  From everything I can find, Chrysler used 5160 in the springs during the years that I have them from, and I figured, a piece of 5160 right on the cutting edge should make for something better than the mix I made for the aesthetics.  My early knives are all gifts for friends and family, and I don't think any of them will ever see any actual use, but I am going to be taking my process to task and testing a few blades... that way I can be certain my HT and tempering technique, which is as new to me as making knives, is decent, just in case someone ever decided to actually put one of my gifts to use.  Worse comes to worst, I'll just tell them to use it for opening letter or something.  I've got a few under my belt, at this point, so I think I will be ordering some known steel in the next few days, just so I can actually make something with an intended use and purpose in mind, and I think my fit and finish is reaching a point where I can be proud to show off my work, and stop trying to hide behind the "newb" label. 

All of my work is done with just my arm and an assortment of hammers... just cross peen hammers in different weights and I dressed the faces slightly different on each one to see how the differences move metal in different ways.  My grinder is just a 2x36 that fits on my bench grinder, but it only attaches horizontally, and I can't find belts locally, so I just buy the 4x36 belts and cut them down the middle to make 2 belts.  Its gotten me by, but I just ordered the wheels and other parts to build a proper 2x72 grinder.  I figure, even if I don't stick with the knife making hobby, the grinder will come in handy for a lot of my other projects.  And at some point, I am seriously thinking of building a forge press, just to make things easier in making the billets, but even building one can get pretty pricey, so I'm waiting to see how long I find enjoyment in this... I tend to try a lot of things in life, just for the experience, and some I find really enjoyable and stick with, like airbrushing, and some... well.... I'm glad I tried them, but you will never hear me say, "boy, I sure wish I could lay tile floors for a living"  So, I'll give it a few months, and if I'm still enjoying it as much as I am now, then by all means, I plan to make this as easy on myself as possible.

Oh, and tang thing...  I did end up forge welding a piece on to extend the length of the tang, but the line where the etching stops was just where the level of the Ferric Chloride was in the jar I keep it in.  Figured the tang was getting covered anyways, so didn't worry about how far up the etch went.  I don't know if that was right or wrong... "newb"... but it made sense in my mind, at the time.

[Shamus Blargostadt]

I'm right with you. I just finished my third knife and I'm itching to try a damascus something. They just look so cool.  Did you get that pattern just by hammering out the welded layers then grinding to shape or did you do any twisting or funky cutting/sandwiching to get that pattern?

I just bought a bar of 1095 from the Jersey Steel Baron, which came out to about $10/12" length and it is much different forging than the leaf springs I've been playing with. The steel seems to behave better and I'm not fighting it so much... or I'm getting the hang of this and it just seems like it.  I'm working on a proper chef's knife. I hope to try to do a damascus chef's knife after this is finished, or maybe just a san mai to learn to walk before running.

Thank you for the details! They're encouraging and empowering. I hope you post pics when it's all done!

[HEAP of JEEP]

If I remember correctly, on that one, I twisted each billet about a twist and a half... I wanted to do more, but I was getting frustrated with things at the time, and settled for that... I may have folded them again after that... I've been trying so many different things to try and get some cool patterns that they are all scrambled in my brain.  Like the one I'm working on now didn't start out as complicated in the planning stages as its turning out to be in actuality.  I was shooting for 20 layers, a twist, one more fold, and then I was going to forge it from the side, so there was a distinct line going down the middle, separating the twisted layers.  The current one has been fighting me, left and right, and when I tried to fold it after the twist, only half of it stuck to itself after 3 weld heats.... so I stopped there, cutting apart at the seam, and ground the surfaces clean... then decided I didn't have enough steel left for the knife I wanted to make, so decided to make another billet to sandwich between those two halves.  That turned in to 10 layers with a few twists and another fold... so I have no idea what I'll wind up with in the end.  The top and bottom of the knife will have the same pattern, but the middle will be decidedly different... might wind up really cool, or might look  awful.  The experimenting is actually the fun part for me though...  because I don't know how it will look until I etch it at the end...  its sort of like anticipating a Christmas present... LOL.  I'm doing the laminate thing on this one too, so hopefully I'll have that final sandwich welded tonight and get it formed into the blade I want... so maybe in a few days I'll have knife number 4 ready for some critiques. 

I thought I had a thread with this finished, but maybe not... here's a pic of how it turned out.

I'm trying to take a little more time with the fit and finish with this next one.  A lot of my early mistakes, I think, have come from just trying to rush things. So fingers crossed.

One thing I did notice on this new one, is the size of my billets makes a huge difference.  Doing this by hand, I lose so much to scale, I figured I was going to go big to start with.  I used 3/16 to weld with the leaf springs where as usually its 1/8, and I started out 2" wide, rather than the 1" I usually shoot for.  If I had a press or power hammer, that would have been fine, but with all the extra heats it took to draw it out, I think I actually lost more steel than if I had started smaller.  Like the extra one I made last night to go in the middle...  I went back to the thinner stock, 1" wide, and I gave it three welding heats, and then two or three more to draw it out and it was ready for the first fold, and the rest was just as easy.  By the time I was ready to add the original two halves to it, my smaller new billet was actually almost as large as the first one... and I had started with less than half the steel... I was just able to shape it so much faster that I lost a LOT less steel.  Another lesson learn the hard way... but from now on, as long as I'm doing this all by hand, I'm staying at the 1" wide and using the thinner stock.  That was actually the perfect lesson to learn before I ordered anything.  

[Shamus Blargostadt]

interesting! Thank you for sharing that. I would have made the same mistake of going larger. I wouldn't guess you'd loose that much from scale.

That really came out nice.

[Iceman_713]

I actually like the way it transitions from the light to dark tones.

[Malice9610]

I like the color transition in the pattern. it will make a great looking knife.

 

[Mark Ling]

Hello everybody,

                            I have a question about Damascus. I was wondering if it is possible to make a knife out of circular saw blades and what I would layer it with. I've heard of people using bandsaw blades. If it is possible to use circular saw blades to make Damascus, could anyone tell me how well it worked ( how was the pattern, did it weld good,etc.) 

                                                                                                           Thanks in advance,

                                                                                                                                           Littleblacksith 

[ThomasPowers]

Circular saw blades can be made from a number of alloys.  If you have a high nickel one use a high C alloy without nickel; if you have a low nickel one use a high carbon high nickel alloy.  Note at alloying elements like chrome will make it harder to weld.

[Mark Ling]

How do you know if it is a low nickel alloy. A sark test? And if so what kind of sparks does it throw. A picture would be great!

                                                                            thanks Thomaspowers 

                                                                                                                   Littleblacksith 

                                                                                                                  

[gearhartironwerks]

Time to do some experimenting.

John

[billyO]

OK, John, here's a pic of one of my first experiment blades when in progress.  If I remember correctly, it's a mix of sawzall blades, a few circular saw blades I cut up and a couple of hacksaw blades.  Don't ask me about the heat treat, I'm pretty sure I guessed with a warm canola oil quench, but have no idea about the resultant hardness.

[Shepdog]

Would chromed steel be suitable as an input to making demascus? I've got a LOT of old motorcycle pipes that I was thinking could find a home near my forge if so....

[ThomasPowers]

usually it's chrome over another plating and no: plated objects, forges and health do not play well together.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Weld them up into some yard art....

Thomas is correct. Most plated items have other metals under them. A good show chrome will have copper as a base layer to provide a smooth surface. Nickel goes over that to help prevent rusting, and chrome provides the Bling. Items like hydraulic cylinder have hard chroming done to provide a wear surface. That chrome is usually quite a bit thicker than chrome on a pipe. Chrome is very hard, and slippery, so it makes a good surface for parts that have movement under pressure.

At welding temps they give off toxic fumes. For yard art you would want to grind down to bare steel before welding.

[Shepdog]

Thanks!