FieryFurnace Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I read up on the dressing the hardy hole thread but that was covering something a little different than what I am running into. Here's the deal: I have a 280# 1950's era Fisher and Norris anvil. It's a good anvil with about 92% rebound, 80% good edges, and it is heavy enough for anything I do. I LIKE my anvil. Here is the problem. The face plate is about 5/8" thick. The hardy hole going through the face plate is 1 1/4" square with beveled (not radius,) corners. However, the hardy hole is larger going through the body of the anvil underneath the face plate. (approximately 1/8" larger all around.) Due to this large and therefore open space underneath the part of the hardy hole that goes through the face, I have found it impossible to get any tool to fit tight. Everything wobbles! So it's not a big deal cutting 3/8" stock on the hardy, but I need a hardy cone (or bick,) now. If I make a hardy cone that wobbles it is obviously going to be a pretty useless piece. I don't even think using a key lock would keep it stable. I have spent several hours trying to make a tight fitting hole downsizer (downsizing to one inch) but can't get it tight. I'm sanding instead of grinding and it goes straight from "won't fit" to too wobbly. Suggestions on what to do would be appreciated. I have thought about selling the anvil and looking out for that issue next time. Perhaps there is something I can do to fix this one though? Or would it be better to try to sell, and rebuy? Thanks! Thoughts??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy seale Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 hey dave, i don't know your set up but.....maybe you could make a piece to fit under the hardy hole that is mounted on your stump ? may take some square tubing and hot fit your tool,and mount it under the hardy hole, that way it will keep the end from wobbeling. are you totaly confussed yet? if any questions pm me and i will try to explain better,jimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DClaville Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 grind it to the size and shape you want and make a whole new set of hardy tools sounds like they have slacked off when finishing the anvil back then.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I think waiting for njanvilman to weigh in would be good, or asking him directly. That would help identify if this is a common problem or not and possibly how others have handled it. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 2 different totally suggestions for you. One would be to make sure you have a really good shoulder on the tool that way wedging it down will be more effective. The other thing you could do is use a tapered stake plate or stake holder for tools that you don't want to move rather than a hardy hole. That way your tools are tapered and lock into place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'd go with either (or both) fitting a piece of structural sq tubing in from the bottom to fit up against the bottom of the overlap and even out the hole. Or/and place in such a tube from the top and so resize your hardy hole to a more common size like 1". To make a downsizer I would make one that is installed from the bottom so it can be a bit fatter in the lower section and then has the tabs bent out to hold it in place on the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don't tread on me Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Take it to someone with a mill and cut off the extra tool steel in the hardie hole. Then make all new tools and sell your old ones on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 If I am understanding correctly, at least some of you are talking about a permanent downsizer. Should the top tabs then be a hardenable steel or just mild? I have made a sleave for the hardy hole downsizing it to 1 inch. However, it is not firm due to the issue mentioned. I am wanting to make most of my anvil tools with a key wedge for extra firm attachment. (when needed) This means that whatever sleave I make has to not only fit tight, but be cut off inside the hardy hole so that the key can seat against the underside of the anvil. I believe this is what Mr. Thomas is talking about. (With the provision that it would of course go up through the bottom instead of the top as pictured. The view is the hardy hole if the anvil were sliced straight through it. I put the sleave in the hardy hole, then put a piece of 1/8" stock on each side and got a firm fit. I'm a little hesitant to make it permanent but don't really have a reason. I am wondering if mild would be ok for the tabs though. Thanks for the input! Always a great help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 grind it to the size and shape you want and make a whole new set of hardy tools sounds like they have slacked off when finishing the anvil back then.. Best thing I have for the job would be a file and filing through an 1/8" off of every side of the hardy hole does not sound like it is going to go well! LOL Mr. Jimmy Seale: My "stump" is a fabricated steel tripod stand. I made it to fit the anvil base perfectly with only racks for tools on the side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Dave - step back and take another look at what your doing...... your wanting to secure a hardie tool (keep it from wabbling). make your hardie tool stem longer and put a slot in it so you can wedge it from the bottom of the heal ( like your joinery project ). Make sure your hardie tool "seats" good at the shoulder, and the wedge will hold it fast. - JK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 You might consider making your shim that fits in the bottom and is the exact same size as the top part of the hardy, slip it in from the bottom and use something like PC7 and glue it onto the anvil. Yes GLUE it sounds funny, but remember that most of the pressure rest on the steel plate and only a little bit pushes against the sides. So with the sides shimmed up the wiggle should go way down. If it works, great! If it dose not work then its most likely that the shim will just knock out the bottom. If it comes out then no harm just a little lost time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Make a new stand put a heavy plate on top with a good hardy hole in it. Drill a 7/8 hole in it heat it up drift it to 1 inch square. Make tools to fit. Brian Braizal uses this check out some of his post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayden H Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Or go find a stump, make a hardy tool with a long spike on the end, and jam it into a stump. Its what I did. (I had the same problem as you, but I got a diamond pin-file set and made it right) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 The glue idea is not a bad one! Can't do the new stand with a heavy plate. It's a good idea, but my steel supplier never has any small pieces of heavy stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I've had the same problem with placing a T-stake in the hardy hole of my anvil; the bottom of the stake is tapered and the hardy is parallel sided, so when I form rings around the bick of the stake it wobbles about. I keep thinking I should do something more permanent to make it work, but in the meantime I have been using wooden wedges. basically I put the stake in place and drive a couple of wooden wedges in from the underside to takeup the slack. They do work loose after a bit of beating, but it was a quick fix for an occasional problem! could you make up a shim to fit underneath to bring the hole back to the right shape (such as the box section downsizer you mentioned) and hold it in place with rare earth magnets? Then it wouldn't be fixed in place and require reshaping all of your tools. Although my first thought as I started reading the thread was to have a long stake on the tool with a slot for a wedge through underneath and a nice wide shoulder to the tool so it doesn't wobble on top if held tight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric sprado Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I vote with the guys saying open up top to match bottom and sleeve it to 1" and GO TO WORK... Simple,simple,simple... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 I don't think leaving it like it is, and wedging all my tools will fix the problem. On the hot cut, yes. On an bick, no! If I make a bick that comes up out of the hole and then turns 90 degrees, the first time I hit it, it will wobble and due to the arched cut of the underside of the anvil, the wedge will come loose. As to filing out the top.......uhhhhh I'm going to try to use the sleeve I have made, and put the shims in it. If that doesn't work, I'll go to trying to file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hold the bic in your vise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 My approach to a tool that doesn`t do what I want it to is to make something to replace it that does work. If you like that anvil for everything except using bottom tools then make something Like Brian did to hold your tools. The idea of a jury rigged fix is that it will always be a half way solution and never completely acceptable. It will always be a thorn in your side till you get fed up and make either a striker`s anvil (like Brian`s) or a dedicated leg vise (like Brian`s). If wobbling tools are a problem then perhaps the vise would be the most sensible and direct permanent solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 For a piece of heavy stock call up the forklift repair place and see about getting a used junked fork. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 The problem with a piece of a fork is you`ll either have to have to hand it off to a machine shop to put a hardy hole in it or anneal it to drill ,square up and finish the hole. If you have a forge big enough to heat the entire block you could always drift the hole to square. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I suggested downsizing as it's a lot easier to find (or make even) hardy tooling at a more "standard" size. I would use mild steel for the downsizer and may even fit the outer lower piece when the top was in the anvil and then trim and run a weld bead on the two downsizer pieces where they meet at the bottom edge. If the tabs get too messed up, fold them up or cut them off, drop the whole thing out of the bottom and make another! I am not a proponent of using taper tooling in a hardy hole. I'd use it in a stake holder designed for such---and they sell individual holders as well as stake plates. I have an anvil with 1.5" hardy holes (yes 2) and it's a pain in an un-powered shop to make tooling for it. I often modify top tools that are close to that size at the eye to fit in the hardy holes. In general I use nested downsizer tubes and "regular" sized hardy tooling; but for some things you want the extra stability and lack of movement of having a "proper" tool for that anvil. I also have an anvil with an 1.25" hardy hole that is a bit battered inside that I will be filing out back to square. (mines tend to be rough on anvils, even large ones as *downtime* can be an expense factor larger than replacing a piece of maintenance tooling. When it gets back to square I will have to make tooling for it as well---I plan to paint a different coloured stripe around the waist of each anvil and do the same for each tool so students can identify which tool goes with which anvil and *NOT* try driving in a 1.5" tool into a 1.25+" hardy hole; grrrrr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Another option you might consider is to drill and tap the hardy shaft and use a bolt and back up plate from the under side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 The problem with a piece of a fork is you`ll either have to have to hand it off to a machine shop to put a hardy hole in it or anneal it to drill ,square up and finish the hole. If you have a forge big enough to heat the entire block you could always drift the hole to square. I think Dave is up to the challenge if he can get the material. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 You might try makeing a shank on the bic long enough to reach the red stand then weld a scocket to the stand to stabilize the bottom. With a good shoulder and that long shank supported that far away it sould not wobble. It could be round and welded to the shank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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