Nathan Hall Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 I did not take any offense to the words of caution at all, and they will be well heeded indeed, I was just simply stating that there does have to come a time when you do it, if you do indeed intend to ever do it at all. I have not been smithing for that long, just a couple of years, but that is plenty long enough to realize the difficulty in doing what some of you guys do so well. There is absolutely never anything wrong with caution in anything one decides to do, but there is also a time when you do have to take that next step, so no jumping right into the deep end is not advisable, but you cant stay in the shallow end your whole life either............ I really think we are all saying the same thing just different ways of saying it............. I do hope I did not offend anyone, or seem offended myself, that was never my intentions at all, just sharing my thaughts on a subject, that really could be applied to not just sword making, but a lot of other things in life as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 I have a lot of students that want to jump in the deep end and forge blades before they learn hammer control---usually only takes them *1* knife that they have to file smooth to figure out that forging is a LOT more fun than filing and doing a good job with the hammer saves *HOURS* at the vise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 ya well my opinion on this subject is they have no idea what they are asking...most want to make a sword cause they cant afford a good one...and they think they will get by"cheaper" by making one .....and it will only take a "few hours" if i only "had the tools "... i have taken to sending them to the local knife maker that teaches... let him figure out how to tell the guy how tough it is to make a nice sword...i have started to explain the prosess a bit tho ... And let um know that fore every 15 minutes of forging its usually 2-3 hrs of grinding and finish work minimum... also kinda get tired of the "can i be your aprentice" types also the are really asking can i come over to your shop waste some of your time for a few hours till i get my project done then you will never see me again....oho and i will work for free! ha! sorry will stop the rant now...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 When talking to the wana-be-expert-athlete-by-friday types, I used to ask the aspirant how many years does it take to become a world-class baseball player. In just about every case they would respond that it took a good many years. Still, many of those who thought about it, would then go looking for someone to guarantee to make them a world class athlete in two years or less. I am afraid that the fantasy movies and other cultural elements have created expectations of acquiring world-class expertise without the time and effort to accomplish such goals. After all, the Karate-Kid could beat up blackbelts after just a couple of weeks of washing cars, painting fences, and balancing on one foot. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 I've made knives; I've not made a sword. Over the many years of my teaching, I had one student who INSISTED on forging a sword blade. I gave him all the precautions and told him that he would miss a lot of curriculum by sticking to a blade. He spent two weeks trying and never got close. I had a number of 5160(?) leaf springs. I would torch out a rough shape, undersized, and we would grind off the torch ash. He would proceed to forge it. Some of the problems: getting good, flat overlapping blows with minimal marks; continuously correcting curves, twists, and level; burning the steel; controlling length; getting a proper tang; warping upon cooling; forging at the wrong temperature; and heat checks appearing. I bet that we torch cut at least four blanks. The biggest problem for this student was burning the steel. Two weeks, and nada, zilch, zero! From that point forward, we stuck to the curriculum. Upon reflection, there is something to be said for this "teaching method." I call it the Marquis de Sade approach. Allow the guy to try something tough until he's ready to tear his hair out and cry real tears. Then, finally step in and ask whether he might need help and more experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Everybody used to ask me if I could make a sword and I used to answer yes but why would I want to? Finally I decided to make one of the blamed things. I broke the first two that I attempted to make. Neither broke on the first day, I had about 3 weeks into each one. It cause me to say unkind words in several languages. I finally had success with the third blade. Will I ever make another one? Never say never, when you see the devil ice fishing you will know I started another sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 mr turley i think your "marquis de sade method" has a lot to be said for it - you sometimes got to Know yourself that you are going about things the right way, not just take someones word for it at all times - sometimes that is just not going to be enough - let the students see and make their own mistakes - then the learning can begin properly - otherwise they may look like they are going through the correct motions but mentally are champing at the bit - not a good learning state to be in ! wasting loads of energy .... how many of us have gone through life taking every experts word for everything at all stages without any questioning? i know i havnt . its natural! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Propane forges are strongly suggested for the "not willing to wait" swordforger as they are less likely to burn up a piece in one. Of course I had a student doing a boar spear who gave it a good college try yesterday in my blown propane forge we use for larger work in that class. I did ask him why the forged out blade had been stuck in the hottest part of the forge while the area we wanted to forge was in a cooler area... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 The description above about want to be a world class athlete in the shortest period of time hits home with me. When I began I acquired all the tools for a beginner but that still left me a beginner.Almost all of my life I have found the keys to learning are education both in classroom and i practicaql application including hands on help. So I signed up for any an all demos, classes etc I attended weekend workshops put on by farrier groups, Typically it would include a friday evening demo, a full day of the guest artist making tools, shoes and trimming and shoeing a horse keeping to very strict standards of shoeing. Sunday was an additional fee and the group size dropped a lot. It was a hands on day. We would forge a shoe or tools and the instructor wouild comem to each of us and offer suggestions on hammer control body mechanics, tool use or design or anything else we needed help on no matter wot level we were working at. These guest instructors were almost always those that had competed in contests and seslected to be on the USA farriers team to compete in contests like the worlds blacksmitting competition in Calgary. Some of the folks I learned from had won that contest and with that the title of world champion. And so you get an idea, The contest has a lot more skills tested than those involved in horse shoeing. To learn from tat class of smiths did indeed move my skills forward a lot sooner than I evger could alone in my shop.AS I move forward I compedted at the state level. The appeal of that is that the judges would inspect my work hands on. They wouild lthen offer thought on wot was wrong or right about my work. That also gave me opinions on the tools I had made to do that work. And wot I need to do differently to get right. Lots of folks on here seem to snub a couple of things with the way I learned. They feel that shoers only nail store bought shoes on horses and overlook the fact that many shoeing groups have the kind of learning opportunities mentioned above. But that a realo high percentage of them smith in other areas. Many folks also do not want to put up the travel or fees that vital training costs. I feel that if you want to get down the road faster you need to do wotever it takes to do that. Budget for however many classes etc you can for each and every year you need help. Above I mentioned classroom learning. This forum is like that.But it does not include shop time or ehlp from someone that is at your side and offering help. Knives and sords are forged and finished with methods and tools common to most smithing. The use of those tools is the difference in the end product. A edged piece with super fit and finish of handle and guards is second class or less if there are hammer marks in the blade that were not part of the plan for that blade. Never seen a nice sord with hammer marks. Some knives are made that way and once in a great while I think it adds to the look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 First up, I'm loving this thread. Thanks to all contributing. Question, though.... is the "I wanna make a sword" phenomenon a case of newbies fixating on the sword itself, or more of a "walk before you can run" thing. I remember day 1 of 'smithing telling myself I was going to knock out a bunch of fire pokers and couple pairs of tongs, so I figure I fall into the later category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 If they are fixated on the sword they often seem to expect it will be quick and easy to do and "drop out" *after* you have wasted your time trying to teach them. Shoot even just doing knives I figure I get one guy in 10 back for heat treating; most drop out when they find out how much work filing and sanding a blade is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I figure I get one guy in 10 back for heat treating; most drop out when they find out how much work filing and sanding a blade is. Yeah, I hate that part. (Not the filing -- there's something I really enjoy about the feeling of a sharp, high quality file peeling off steel. But sanding? Yech.) You notice that sword polishing is its own profession in Japan. Japanese bladesmiths aren't dummies. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLPilgrim Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I'm not going to lie, the main reason I wanted to start learning this craft was for wrought iron and bladesmithing, but I also understand the need to get out and learn the basics first. And then relearn the basics because jumping into bladesmithing is understandably not simple. That being said, I DO want to learn it, but I'm following the "Blacksmithing 101" syllabus before I hop into "Forging Muramasa's Katana". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodskevin Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I too got into smithing to make my own knives and swords. I made my own throwing knives as a child via an odd method. Not knowing any better, I found a broken cross cut saw and did the following. I took a file and used the edge as a scribe slowly scratching and outline of what I wanted. When I scored it deep enough I would take a cresant wrench and break of the excess steel. No heat, no anvil, no hammer and certainly no EDUCATION!! I began reading and doing Internet searches on knife making in 2003. I built my first forge in 2009 and am currently finishing my smithy construction. I have yet to make a finished blade. Instead I started with fire pokers, hooks, Fredrick cross, and tools. I cut out a knife blank and forged a bevel. This is as far as I've gone into actual bladesmithing. It sounds like the major issue here is pride. The 3 year old screaming "I DO IT MY SELF" all grown up. The Internet and books are great, but there's no substitute for seeing the hammer hit the steel in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I have taken 25 or so people through the process of forging a finished sword in a week from start to finish.so it can certainly be done. some people get better results than others all come away with a correctly hardened and tempered finished sword. like everything else you get out what you put in and I will not deny that those weeks are probably among the hardest weeks work the students will ever do and are certainly my hardest working weeks of the year. however it is not rocket science. Making a safe (as far as being correctly hardened and tempered ) sword is not hard . Making a well balanced sword that feels alive in the hand takes a little more experience. swords are fascinating things , we as people are drawn to them . Striving to make something like a sword is a great undertaking and I wish you all luck on your journeys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Most interesting. Check it out; If in the future someone wants you to teach them (or tell them) how to make a sword, and you don't want to, say "no". It is a very ancient technique, and very effective. Or, if you are smart, offer them a course in bladesmithing (as per my esteemed colleague, above). Whatever it is you do, the kind of shrill histrionics coming from some of the alleged grown-ups (poor things, they've been hurt before!) in this thread should not be included in your tactics. If you think its only histrionics to warn people about the dangers from a blade breaking, your education is lacking, Also this could be taken as an abusive attack by some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I think Dan wins the prize. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Thank you Dan for stating the obvious. Shrill histrionics seems to be the norm on this site much more than it used to be.( I was a lurker for a few years) Very discouraging, very. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Maddox Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Hmm. This has been an interesting read. Sad to see people who seem to be against newbies, like my self, who wanted to "make a sword". That said they have some darn good reasons. I am very new to blacksmithing. First picked up a hammer half a year or so ago. haven't gotten steady with my smithing until the recent month or so though. That said the whole reason I got into it was because I wanted to make a sword. Specifically I hope to make a replica of the sword of truth. It had nothing to do with wanting to make money by making them or not being able to afford one. I simply wanted to make it and hold it in my hands, knowing that I MADE that. For me that would be an amazing feeling. With that in mind I went to the Art shop tech at my college and talked my idea over with him. he is no master BS but as far as I know he is pretty skilled. He warned me it would be a LOT of work. and I knew that. Granted at the time I was figuring it would be a year or more before I would be able to even really attempt a blade of that caliber. That said I think the approach he took to it was a good one. He took me into the shop. Showed me how to forge and some hammering basics. Then he basically told me to keep beating on the steel and work on my skill. He said that if I wanted to make a sword I need to start small. Get the basic skills of BS down and then start trying to make a knife. Once I had that done he said I could the make a bigger knife. And a bigger one. I feel that is a good approach to it. Don't just show them how to make a sword. Have them do the baby steps. Which is what I am still on. XD Don't get me wrong I have had fun playing with some knife like shapes, and I have seen my skills improve. IDK I guess that is my 2 cents/story related to this topic. All I can say is that I am glad he didn't turn me away because I came to him wanting a sword. Or put me through tests before he even began to show me anything. Granted he is also not a BS by trade so by showing me the techniques he wasn't losing money. I guess I would say that for all the "kids"out there who wanna walk into a forge one morning and walk out with a sword by the end of the day there are kids like me (I may be 20 but I am still a kid as far as skill goes XP) who started out wanting a sword, and still do, but are willing to take the baby steps and learn the techniques needed. Hell if anything it makes the sword worth more and more badass to me. If I am able to make it well I will be able to look at it and see it as a symbol of my dedication/love of smithing. Now I think I should get some sleep before classes tomorrow morning. XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Hmm. This has been an interesting read. Sad to see people who seem to be against newbies,........is my 2 cents/story related to this topic. All I can say is that I am glad he didn't turn me away because I came to him wanting a sword. Or put me through tests before he even began to show me anything......... Now I think I should get some sleep before classes tomorrow morning. XD I'm sure that we are all glad that you stuck with it and found the right opportunity. I don't believe that any of us are against newbies, its just that after being burned enough times (and hear about law suits) most folks get a bit reluctant. After all, if every time someone wearing a bright green hat came up to you and punched you, my bet is that after a while you would be reluctant to let someone wearing a bright green hat get too close. If a higher percentage of young men had your fine character, not only would smiths be less reluctant, but the world would be a much better place. P.S. : If you indicate your approximate location, that is country, and section of a state, you might get invitations to blacksmithing meetings and even eventually to people's shops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 If the new person just wants to hammer and put an edge on a bar of steel that's fine, but why do they continue to ask us how to make a sword if they don't want an answer? don't they already know what a sword looks like? Why ask if they don't want to learn to make a real one? Getting upset with us for telling the truth rather than posting how a bent and butchered bar of steel is so wonderful? that kind of humoring is what you tell a kid when potty training. If a person thinks they are old enough to make an adult weapon such as a sword, they better act like one and and take honest information, and stop accusing us of trying to "stop them" or "keeping secrets", and my favorite... "afraid of competition", only fools with over inflated egos think that way. There are no blade secrets. People ask here, and we give an honest answer, but after a while we stop posting, because of bad blood for telling them that yes you can bang on steel, but NO it wont be worth a cent as a real sword until you learn some basic skills. Please don't blame us if you ask a question and don't like the answers... making a nice sword takes time and hard work, and a few skills, that many of us have freely shared with anyone willing to actually light a forge and try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I have taken 25 or so people through the process of forging a finished sword in a week from start to finish.so it can certainly be done. some people get better results than others all come away with a correctly hardened and tempered finished sword. like everything else you get out what you put in and I will not deny that those weeks are probably among the hardest weeks work the students will ever do and are certainly my hardest working weeks of the year. however it is not rocket science. Making a safe (as far as being correctly hardened and tempered ) sword is not hard . Making a well balanced sword that feels alive in the hand takes a little more experience. swords are fascinating things , we as people are drawn to them . Striving to make something like a sword is a great undertaking and I wish you all luck on your journeys. And I think a portrait painter with 18 years of full time painting could walk me through one portrait in a week as well Owen, but there is a bit of a difference between a skilled person teaching, hand holding, instructing a small group in his own shop ....a shop set up for what you are teaching....and someone who may not have any specialized tooling doing the same. I do not teach sword making (or knife making for that matter) because the process..the technique if you will..is far too personal for me. I invest too much of myself into those objects. Also, since I can not make a sword in a week I can not hope to teach another how to do so....to try to distill that into a class, well, its beyond me...I simply can not accomplish such a thing. I'd rather walk them through making a railing or a garden gate...at least if something goes wrong you can fix it....with swords it can go wrong at any point and its back to the start....nothing can go wrong on a railing that can not be fixed...it may come to a chop saw and electric welder, but it is doable....with a blade this is not so. Ric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 This is an intersting topic for me, I think the long and the short of it boils down to the 'I wanna make a sword' guys ability to learn, and their aptitude at making things, Im probably not a lot different to most other people drawn to this craft, I am an information sponge, and pretty good at making stuff in general, At the moment I have no interest at all in making 's' hooks, etc. I like making blades. I taught myself to patternweld (by reading all on the subject online) and got the basics of welding down in a few months by trial and error. Blades and blade steel is where it is at for me! Anyhoo, long story short I decided I wanna make a sword - so I did, a 10 bar anglo saxon viking esk one (my first try), and it worked out just fine. My hours at an anvil were spectacularly low when I made the sword. I had good advice online from some guys that really know their onions (Mick Maxen and Owen Bush, and some input from others), and I used Owens heat treatment facilities and had good guidance from some experienced bladesmiths with it (thanks ) - I am confident that I could have heat treated the sword with equipment I gathered had I not got the oportunity of using Owens kit. After completing that blade I realise it has some shortcomings in terms of weight and balance, but nothing another couple of days at the grinder would not sort out (its had its 'hours' and there are other projects that are more exciting for me at the moment). On the back of that one blade I was asked to do a lecture at University college London to the archeo metallurgy department (they also wanted to commision a blade based on the radiographs of an actual blade). I tried to make a 'horseshoe heart' a couple of weeks ago, it was out and out shockingly embarresingly bad (it is still in the bottom of the quench bucket laughing at me) - I can forge blades though! I suppose the purpose of this ramble is that anyone can make a sword, or a very close approximation of one without that much prior experience. You just have to read, and understand some data on sword blade geometry, some metallugry, have some aptitude and common sense, and have a very steady hand at the grinder, oh, and a lot of patience for finishing work I happily state my hobby as bladesmith, inevitably people draw the association with anvil and fire and ask me if I can make them a gate :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Weight, Balance and vibration node control are what makes sword instead of a sword like object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Maddox Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I'm sure that we are all glad that you stuck with it and found the right opportunity. I don't believe that any of us are against newbies, its just that after being burned enough times (and hear about law suits) most folks get a bit reluctant. After all, if every time someone wearing a bright green hat came up to you and punched you, my bet is that after a while you would be reluctant to let someone wearing a bright green hat get too close. If a higher percentage of young men had your fine character, not only would smiths be less reluctant, but the world would be a much better place. P.S. : If you indicate your approximate location, that is country, and section of a state, you might get invitations to blacksmithing meetings and even eventually to people's shops. Thanks for the compliment. I can understand that for sure though. It is easy to get burned out when all you ever see is people who want the easy way and get huffy when you spell it out for them.. If anything I find it sad that so many people do not have the drive to see it through. After talking with my teacher he pointed out that out of 4-5 people who have come to him wanting to make swords/do blacksmithing I am the only one who stayed past the first few times on the anvil. XD Also thanks for the tip about location. I didn't know I had to set that up. >__< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now