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I Forge Iron

Words of Caution for Budding Swordsmiths


Maillemaker

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I am one of those people who will try to leap into somethign at an advanced level without having troubled myself to "learn the basics." Sometimes this has worked out well for me and some times it ends up with a slew of compromises. I made my first Guitar which I played for decades, until a flood wrecked it , in ecxactly this manner. I knew almost nothign about woodworking or musical instruments but I learned as I progressed on the instrument. I made my first living room set of furnitue in the same way. 36 years later I still have the Coffee table.
In fairness, I'd been an old school manual machinist for several years already.

Needless to say, it is unlikely that a chunk of a guitar or a couch will break away and open one's throat.

This is, I should think, the only real problem with the newbie cum sword maker.
Or stated in the colloquy: "You'll shoot your eye out kid."
The enthusiastic newbie usually does not want to make a sword as a result of any great intelectual pursuit. He won't have read metalurgical texts or historical materials pertanent to the era of the swords he hopes to replicate. And he certainly won't see the effort as the next logical phase of mastering his trade craft.

Odds are, He wants a way-far-cool weapon. A shiny bauble that reeks of action movie testerone.
Who can blame him? I wanted a beautiful guitar that would make into Andrés Segovia overnight. Well, I'd been playing a crap guitar for years prior, but you know what I'm saying.

In the spirit of: "You'll shoot your eye out kid." I did the same thing with home renovation. I wanted a house but couldn't afford a decent one, so I bought a fixer-uper. It was an ancient huge two family Victorian. For Example: I ended up replacing a lot of of the old peg and post wiring as I tore out walls and rebuilt the living spaces. This meant I needed to learn how to do electrical wiring. I didn't know anything about the trade. I shudder to think of all the Boston Loups I installed in the Romex connectors before I knew that it was a "Boston Loup" or that it was both illegal and a serious fire hazard.

"You'll shoot your eye out kid."

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  • 3 years later...

 quick word of warning/reminder to the noobs.  If you want to jump in the deep end of the pool with out first learning how to swim, dont complain about which methods the life guards use to save you when you are about to drown.  Meaning expect less than welcoming comments if you dont know how to move steel, but insist on posting here rather than learning to work metal before  jumping in the deep end.  If you just want something to hang on the wall, you don't need us to tell you how,  beat it and grind it until it looks like you want.

Listening to the warnings`or accept how we may use our time to educate you.

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Well sometimes it reads as "My time is too precious to do basic research; but your times is worthless and so you can spend it on me"  On an apprentice thread amongst professional knifemakers the consensus was that an untrained student would need to spend about 10 hours of untrained shop work for every hour of 1to1 instruction.  Most modern shops don't have that much grunt work available on a regular basis.

As a machinist would you suggest a new student of the trade just stick a chunk of metal in a mill or lathe and start making chips?  What are the chances of them not damaging the tool or themselves?

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IMNSHO, we smiths have brought this burden on ourselves to some degree. Honestly, think back to when you were 14 years old. Didn't you want to make or own a sword, or both? I know I did when I was 14, but there was nothing even remotely like IFI then, the internet wasn't even in science fiction, home computers were made by Radio Shack, heck, even ABANA was still less than 2 dozen guys sitting around an anvil in GA pondering how to bring the art of blacksmithing back from the dead, and literature on sword making was nonexistent except for a few dusty old tomes in the public library. None of which had any practical information.

We live in an era and a culture of instant gratification. Information is always available and right at your fingertips. The trouble is that most people do not understand that information is not knowledge. The other problem is that when we were young, we all (probably all of us anyway) took every shop class that our junior and senior high schools offered and most public and private schools don't offer shop class anymore. The youth of today has no real concept of what a skill-craft is, what it takes to become a craftsman. They just see all these forums on-line with all these folks talking about making this stuff, and posting pictures, and they must naturally come to the conclusion that it can't be all that difficult, if so many people are doing it.

Whenever I am approached by a young person interested in making knives or swords, I always very politely encourage them to contact the local chapter of ABANA here in AZ. I give them our website information and let them know when the next meet is coming up and tell them that they should attend and they will get to meet a whole bunch of smiths, making a whole lot of different stuff (including knives and swords). The ones that show up are serious. The ones that don't I never see or hear from again. Some of them actually stick around.......

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Valid points all. In the last couple years I've had several students who have never driven a nail. I had to start them out on basic hand skills, one I had driving roofing nails in a birch block.

I didn't want to make a sword as a kid, I wanted to build a submarine and had I actually been able to cobble something together even knowing it wouldn't even hold air you can bet your booty I would've figured out a way to get into deep water WITH me in it. I wouldn't bet anything on a teen NOT taking a sword down and trying it out on things. Probably trees, shrubs, etc. but would expect a few to try it on the neighbor's dog, etc.

naw, kids are kids. The ones who actually do more than talk about wanting to be an apprentice and show up. I talk to politely, I'm not VERY POLITE to them unless they're special needs kids. Kids like dogs and horses will live up to your expectations, treat them like delicate flowers and that's what they'll become. Treat them like adults who need to learn things and they'll behave like adults. There are always exceptions but that's life.

Up front and honest, I tell them the shop rules before they get in the door and spell out the consequences. Everybody makes mistakes but deliberately break a rule and you're out. Period. I'm a nice guy and a good instructor but I put the responsibility where it belongs. My #1 job is keep them as safe, as practicing any inherently dangerous craft can be. #2 present knowledge and supervise their activities. Their job? Learn. I can't TEACH anybody anything it's not like I can take a stick to them for getting it wrong. It's up to the student, it's on their shoulders. Those are the conditions of learning in my shop. I'll show anyone everything I know but I can't teach it to them.

I'm instructing a special needs kid now, I had to threaten with sweeping the floor if he wouldn't just SAY he didn't know a thing. Said it with a grin but leaned the broom against the table next to me. About the second time he said "I don't know" he opened up and a good session began. He needs more help than most but he's polite, listens and tries. We're golden, I'll go the limit for him.

There is only one attitude that will get a person anywhere in life.

Frosty The Lucky.

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  • 2 months later...

I can't believe I am commenting on a 4 year old post, but alas here I am and once again I have an opinion.... not being a blacksmith, as of now and totally being a newbie as I am I do want to make a sword...my original time line was like two years to make one, I am seeing that may be just a bit under-evaluated

Some people talk about teaching classes that make a sword in a week...I commend you, those people that you teach are getting what they want, a sword they MADE with all bragging rights and such...it doesn't matter if the balance is off a bit...or if it has a couple hammer marks in it...as long as it is safe and made with enough supervision to ensure it's safety bottom line is they made it. I mean lets face it how many of you professional sword makers have ever made a sword that was used in a life or death circumstance? 

As for teaching newbies I learned my skills as a machinist by hanging out at a machine shop in my youth...when the owner of the shop said to me " if your gonna hang out here you might as well do something constructive and sweep the floor" I jumped at the chance and was amazed at the end of the week when he came over to me and handed me my first paycheck and my time card for the following week. time went by sweeping the floor, holding something as someone did whatever they were doing to it when the boss dude asked if i thought I could manage drilling some holes with a drill press....my answer " you show me what to do and I will do it"

fast forward 35 years or so and I'm the boss dude at both my own shop and one that I work at, in my own shop, which is mainly a welding shop with me or my son the two primary machinists... we have Wednesday freebie night where our welders are allowed to make, fix, their own stuff, and when it comes down to machining stuff I supervise and teach them the skills they need to know in order to do it safely... we even have a few high school students that the shop teach (who is a friend of mine) gave me name of that come around and do side projects and such.

At work we have a apprenticeship program believe it or not where we take an average person off the street and give them a 6 week crash course on print reading basic metal cutting theory and such......at which point I get to take them into our manual shop and TEACH them everything they need to learn hands on while making production parts. this task can really suck due to some peoples poor work ethics, and such....but from each group that I have taught so far it seems as if at least one or two really want to learn and these two make it all worthwhile

I guess my point is

Treat all newbies as if they were your first one ever.....until such time as they show their true colors and are just wasting your time.....if it takes you more than a day or two to figure out the good ones from the bad....maybe you need a bit more schooling yourself

And just for a thought of the moment, why not create some stickies with numbers such as the knife making ones such as "Forge making 101" ,"burner making 101" and so forth and so forth and then you fine very experienced craftsman that answer so many questions can go in and tell everyone in one simple place everything us newbies need to know.

I see frosty answering the very same questions I just got done asking a few weeks ago to someone new just yesterday..... please keep in mind that apparently this server has undergone a recent upgrade and believe me finding information is not the easiest thing on here right now...many pages deadend is " this page no longer exists" and tons of pictures are missing

Just my two cents worth....what with inflation and worth squat 

Dave 

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Some random thoughts:

There are students you couldn't teach if you were hammering the knowledge in them with a 20# sledge and students who learn like pouring gasoline on a fire.  Unfortunately if you spend a day of two on 200 students---there went your *year*!  The good ones are great to be around and I find they get me to up my game while teaching them; but finding them is the issue.

Robert Heinlein had a good quote about this: "It is easier to deal with a footpad than it is with the leech who wants "just a few minutes of your time, please—this won't take long." Time is your total capital, and the minutes of your life are painfully few. If you allow yourself to fall into the vice of agreeing to such requests, they quickly snowball to the point where these parasites will use up 100 percent of your time—and squawk for more!"

There is a big difference between a "project" class and a teaching smithing class---even if they are making the same thing.  One goes a lot more into the "whys" of every method and step and generally I demand a higher level of work from such students---even though they may be expected to do more on their own.  Supervision of "project" students is much higher in my experience.

I just taught two classes at a weeklong medieval event and had one student that ended up spending a lot of time at the smithy and I hope will continue.  He got a much deeper class on smithing than the others who were just making something they could use.

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First off we do have sticky's for information, it should be no surprise to find out how few read them. 

As for life and death issues with swords,  Most people are not smart enough to understand that every time there is an impact to the blade, there is that risk.  Every time I or a student cuts in class some one could get killed if the blade fails, Have you ever seen a sword break and watched a part of a Katana fly across the room and hit a lady in her leg?  I did.   She was very lucky it was the back of that blade not the cutting edge that hit her, and I was the student that was using the blade.  I had a large enough clear space around me also. The cheap blade I bought failed.  I did not make it.  I was not even making blades back then. I was only a second degree black belt back when I bought it.   I hope this explains why I have some very personal reasons for my warnings and worry's about blades failing,  I have not forgotten my fear of my sword cutting off that ladys foot that day over 25 years ago.

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I believe you guys mistook some of what I was saying.....I apologize, sometimes when I type I get ahead of myself, brain works much faster than the fingers, 

At work I get paid to waste my time teaching newbies, we normally get 12 at a time, of the twelve one...maybe two turn out to be "good ones" you better believe those one or two get the royal treatment, I will teach the star of the group to tram in a mill..have him or her do it twice with me...then teach his cohorts how to do it.... that way he gets to do it like 14 times in one day for lots of practice.....repetitions do sink in quite deep.... works quite well for me, not trying to blow my own horn but we have 97 machinists where I work.....of that number 13 of our best  have been trained by me...yes I am quite proud of that figure..please keep in mind most of these best are younger than some of the machinists have been machinists 

At my own shop the people that i take in are children of employee's and a few high school kids hand picked by a high school shop teacher... this "kids" tend to get the dirtiest grimiest jobs I can find for them, the one's that do the job for a few days without complaining tend to get moved onto more challenging work very quickly, and quite often will even find a small paycheck for themselves.... believe me I'm not stupid and weed out the ones that just want a quick fix now type of thing....I'm about teaching a trade not just playing a game.

Steve my sincere apologizes for my poor choice of words, I can only speak for myself but when I said I want to make a sword.... i guess it would have been more appropriate to say I want to build something with my own hands that looks suspiciously like a sword that can hang from my wall to be taken down and shown to people and brag about.... if an intruder were to ever break into my house believe me I have more than enough guns to deter anything up to and perhaps including a canadian military invasion (sorry all you Canucks I live like 60 miles from the border and when I wanted to get a federal tax stamp to buy class three weapons my sheriff asked why I thought I needed it.....of course the first thing that came to mind was "to fight off the Canadian invasion of course" he laughed at me and then signed my form)

I believe that most people that want to make a sword want the same thing as me? a wall hangar that looks cool as all get go. 

As for myself....after reading here for a few weeks have come to the conclusion that I may have underestimated what it takes... as of yesterday I have just joined a blacksmith guild that is somewhat local to myself.... I actually got the chance to hold a handmade Damascus knife and gotta say it was even cooler than looking at pictures

as for stickies the ones you did on knives is very cool.....I have read most of them... very nice job.... but as far as building a forge.....all I could find was broken links at every turn..not your fault but  it is what it is

for everyone that helps the newbies I thank you....believe me I do know how stupid we can be

dave

 

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Aw you don't have anything to apologize for Dave, you're pretty new here and are coming up with good ideas. So most have been in place for quite a while, they were good ideas then and are good ideas now.

Most of us who teach folk do it for ourselves as much as others. My first serious student Richard was probably the best I've had, a home schooler with parents who expected him to excel. My second was Lindsey, a grad student who made a practice of picking up a craft at every college she studied and I was only 50 miles away. She was studying to practice sports medicine and understood instantly why I hold a hammer the way I do. I was incredibly pleased to find out I was right, my method minimizes joint damage and is a good force multiplier.

I learned more from those two kids than years of studying on my own. Every time they asked why do it that way? Why do you do that? etc. etc. it forced me to examine MY methods and actions closely enough to explain them in terms suitable for a beginner. Even better was when they asked Why don't you do it this way? I cherish ideas unpolluted by knowledge, fresh eyes often see things the experienced don't.

I don't think I've met a teen age boy who didn't want to make a sword, I did. I tell them up front I won't be teaching them how to make a sword, I don't make them I'm not qualified. I tell them I can teach them to forge so they can learn to forge a sword if they get good enough. Lindsey is the only person I've let make a knife in my shop but she has so much more raw talent than I do it would've been truly unfair not to give her a shot at it.

Anyway, every state fair or demo, or place where smithing is talked about I hand out bunches of cards if I get a call it's a surprise. If one in 10 who call actually come out I'm really surprised. If one who does come out comes out more than once. Etc. etc. you get the idea, I don't have many students, maybe1-2 a year in a good year.

Hard work is pretty self filtering. S'okay if somebody only wants to give it a try I'll give them a crack at it they might take it up.

Frosty The Lucky.

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  • 5 months later...
On 2015-09-16 at 0:11 AM, Frosty said:

I don't think I've met a teen age boy who didn't want to make a sword

 

I guess I too am a teen age boy who wants to make a sword......except that I am in my mid 30s haha. Swords , axes and all things fantasy and medieval are what drew me to the Blacksmith art in the first place. When I was younger , knowing nothing about blacksmithing nor possessing any of the tools , I used to make "swords" and similar things out of metal I found laying around.... then administer a savage pruning to the helpless poplar trees and willows. Nothing was safe from my wrath ..save for the more resilient trees who's branches would dent my blades or hurt my hands.  I even remember watching Conan and then heating one of my mild steel weapons of death to a very dull red in a fire and then quenching it in a puddle of muddy water and livestock urine.

Fast forward 20 something years and I am a budding amateur blacksmith and I thank the gods that I didn't have access to a forge or other means of hardening high carbon steel when I was into tree-slaying. I know for a fact that some of the metal I used to grind my weapons out of would have been hardenable and knowing me I would have got a piece hot enough , quenched and said " derp I has tempered sord now!" .....and set about whacking trees. The trees could have had their vengeance as i lay on the ground bleeding out through a severed jugular vein as a result of my own shattered steel.  Lots of people who know nothing of the properties of steel do not even know the difference between hardening and tempering or somehow think they are synonymous (embarrassingly I did too).

Now I have the tools and the knowledge , minus the experience , to make a sword albeit a crude and ugly one. Have I ? No , save for a few machete type things. Will I? Of course...it's why I am here. But not till I am confident in my skill and know-how. Being a relative newbie my advice may not be worth much but here it is: Listen to the warnings of people who DO know. When it comes to dangerous things it is always better to learn from someone else's mistakes.

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I have a secret for you Prevenge, I'm really an eight year old who got big enough to play with the cool toys. I made a lot of swordlike objects as a kid and I knew a LITTLE about heat treating, we had to have a lot of the things Dad spun heat treated. Mostly annealed and or stress relieved so I had some idea of what was going on. Of course what I knew about heat treating blades fell into the dangerous category.

Dad discouraged me from blacksmithing he was a depression age kid and his philosophy was I should learn a paying trade. I was 40 before I convinced him I only do it for fun not a job. He accepted that and was good with it. By then I wasn't interested in making blades, not really. I can make a workable knife if necessary but I'm a long way from knowing how to do it properly. I'd have to do a lot of reading and trial and error learning. It takes more time and dedication than I wish to invest for a hobby.

Still, the dark side calls. Like I say I'm still that eight year old at heart.

Frosty The Lucky.

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  • 4 years later...

Well it's been nearly two years, so I guess it's time to resurrect this thread. ;)  Thinking I wanted to forge a sword is what got me started in smithing.  Well, I had to gather up the tools for the job, so I built a forge, then I needed an anvil, so I made one. While the forge was  quite adequate, the anvil was only ok for a tinsmith, but not enough mass for blacksmith. I managed my first blade on that anvil. A nice letter opener made from an old bearing race.  Since, I've made another forge, and a way better anvil. I needed a way to hold onto hot steel, and a way to tend the fire. So, I made a poker, and rake, and tongs. Then I needed a way to cut stock, so I made a hot cut. Wanting to leave my good body hammer in the shop, and needing a light crosspeen at the forge, I made one. Well, I needed to make a handle hole in the new hammer, so I hadda make a punch, and drift.  I've spent so much time making the tools to forge a sword, that I haven't had time to forge a sword. (probably a good thing too)   I found out the other day that I need a holdfast, a spring fuller, and a swage block. So those will be happening next time I fire up the forge. Oh, I also need a rivet header as well.

 mabe, one of these days, I'll get around to making a sword of some sort. But I'm having too much fun making tools of the trade, and learning how to tend a coal fired forge.

As to kids wanting to build a sword, I say go for it. But do it properly. I once wanted to fly airplanes. So I found someone willing to show me how.  On my sixteenth birthday, I guess I'd scared him enough that he got out of the airplane and told me to go make 3 landings and come back. When I got back, he said "go fly awhile".   That was 1979, I've been flying ever since. 

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  • 4 months later...

Great thread. The insight and experience in this read applies to all sorts of aspects and says a lot about the upcoming generations. 

To me it is simple. Put in the work and do it right or suffer the risks involved. Y'all Elders are very much appreciated by us thicker skinned young'ens, who have learned quite a bit from you and in some cases could not have done it (properly) without your help and experience. Thank you.

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My one bit of advice for budding sword smiths is to have the skills necessary before you start on a large project like a sword.  You want to make sure that you are up to it as a crafts person.  You will put a lot of time into a large project like a sword and you don't want to waste the one thing you have a finite amount of, time.  For example, if your knowledge is based on binge watching Forged in Fire you will know about hardening a blade by quenching it but nothing about tempering it.  So, do you really want to put the hours and hours necessary into making a brittle sword that will break the first time you strike a tree branch or a 2x4?  Work up to a sword by making smaller blades.  That way your mistakes and learning will not have such a large time investment.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

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  • 2 years later...

I must confess I am one of those noobs who show up on the knifemaking scene and say "I'm gonna make a sword!!!!" I have been making knives for about 6 months now, and have broken a couple.

I am trying to make a Greek kopis out of high carbon steel (old rusty wrecking bar) and I would like to know if these warnings of "Don't do it unless you know what you're doing" apply to short swords and machete style stuff.

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Welcome aboard, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you'll have a better chance of meeting up with members living within visiting distance. Nothing beats working with an experienced smith for learning the craft.

Yes, Any time you are making something from high carbon steel that will be hardened and hopefully tempered properly to be swung around and hit stuff. It IS dangerous and you're better off learning the skills necessary on ore controllable projects.

If you must use mystery steel a wrecking bar isn't a bad choice, they're generally a medium or high-medium carbon steel and so less likely to embrittlement from heat treat mistakes. The downside is you do NOT KNOW what kind of steel a wrecking bar is, not even if you buy it new and it may do strange things if you don't know how it's supposed to be forged, heat treated, etc. 

Do you know how to evaluate mystery steel? It's an important acquired skill for the scrap yard bladesmith. 

My recommendation is buy NEW steel from a reputable steel supplier. That way you know exactly what you have and know the proper heat treatment for the finished product you wish.

A kopis is a meaty blade so there's plenty of steel in the blade making it a little safer. A good first sword project. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Welcome from the Ozark mountains.

Frosty's advice is spot on. The term wrecking bar can describe a multitude of tools. I would forge some of the bar you have and make test "coupons" to try different quench mediums for hardening and tempering. That way you will have a better idea on how it will work for a blade. My first try at a short sword was from a "crow bar". I didn't test it first and after a lot of work, I found out it wouldn't harden even with super quench.

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Welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming.  Glad to have you.

I agree with what Frosty and Irondragon have said, particularly about experimenting with unknown steel regarding heat treating.  Crow/pry/wrecking bars are made to be TOUGH, not hard, and only a bit springy.  So, some will be a good source for a blade but some will not.  You do not want to discover that your source is one of the latter after you have put a good bit of time and effort into it.  If you want to make a wall hanger or other only decorative blade then just use mild steel and don't mess with heat treating.

A short sword like a kopis is not as likely to have the same issues as a longer blade but it still represents a significant investment of time.  You want to maximize your chances of success.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

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