Nathan Hall Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 When I started smithing I knew I would be mainly self taught threw trial and era so I sat down and wrote a list of projects I was going to do, in the order I wanted to do them in with an eye towards starting easy and going more complicated, and I find that some of my easy ones still plague me lol............. I have to admit though that I did jump the gun some what and make a few knives well before I originally intended on doing blades, all the knives really done though was prove to me im no where near being ready to tackle a sword......... machette maybe but definately no sword lol........... but I have to beg you hear Steve dont give up on all of us starters, I for one would dearly miss your knowledge and well wrote post, you do an excellent job of explaining things and between you and Mr. Powers I think one of you always have an answer in every single thread that I have read for advice and information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balian625 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I'm 15 (I started on my own and getting small lessons from my farrier on basic blacksmithing no knives involved) and have made knives for a long while (or so it seems...about 2 or 3 yrs.) and i remember when i was that little guy saying "make me a sword" or "how do you make a sword". You have to keep in mind that kids that ask this aren't TRYING to be obnoxious. I completely agree with what you all say don't get me wrong! i preticularly like the quote made above "When someone comes up to me and says "Make me a sword!" I say "Sure hop up into the forge!" I've started with knives to learn how to heat treat and temper and have made several large knives that I have taken through XXXX and they dont crack, break, or loose their edge. I am now making an attempt at a short sword about 30 in. long. I'm not trying to brag and all I'm really getting at is: Anyone my age or younger that wants to bladesmith heed the advice above! Try and find someone who specializes in blades (not dissing my farrier who is quite good at it) and try and see if they are willing to teach you or find a blacksmiting guild and get contacts. You can't go from 'S' hooks to swords. Take your time and learn the basics. Sorry to rant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I'm 15 (I started on my own and getting small lessons ...Anyone my age or younger that wants to bladesmith heed the advice above! .....Take your time and learn the basics...... Very well said! Thank you very much for contributing to the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balian625 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Thank you! I was worried I may have ranted too much. I just know how dangerous it can be and know people that have had a blade break and had it come close to cutting more than their beards off. I wanted KIDS (thats in caps to remind all the younglings that just because you read it in a book dosen't mean you know how to do it the RIGHT way) to know that it can be and is dangerous. If you want to make a sword that fine! Just go about it the right way! I hope that kids my age will read what I said above along with what you all have said and realize- "Oh! Its not just a bunch of crazy "grown-ups" talking down to us kids! Theres even kids that agree with them. Maybe i should listen?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Hall Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Lol steve's coment on the gun hit home, thats why I became a machinist, then eventually a tool maker, because I wanted to be able to make anything lol............ two months on the job at my first shop I started a gun too................ it took a lot longer than it should of, and I had to learn a lot on the way, but I learned more about the process of working metal building that gun than any other single thing I can ever remember building, I also learned about outsourcing lol as I ended up just buying a barrell blank and only doing the chamber myself there............. I have said often that I am not ready for a sword yet, but six years ago I also thaught I wasnt ready for a kid, and thirteen years ago tons of people thaught I wasnt ready to build my own rifle, Im sure at sixteen my parents thaught I wasnt ready to drive a car, so I do thank I am going to start on a sword.......... I doubt it is perfect, and Im sure i will make mistakes, but only way to learn to swim is in the water............ I have put making one off for a long time thinking I somehow needed to earn the right to try, but after reading this and thinking on it I have changed my mind.......... I earned the right to try the day I was born and although it most definately will not be as nice a sword as many could make, I am going to do it, Thanks all for a great thread and really making me thank about it lol Ive went from not thinking I was ready to determined to start in less than a weeks time lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Well then, have fun. Just be extremely safety-conscious when you take it out and test it. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Making a sword? There is nothing to it. All you have to do is take a piece of steel, beat it till it looks like a sword and then quit. Here are several sets of instructions that will help anyone make the sword of their dreams. Word of caution, The following instructions are not politically correct or idiot proof. http://hansoncustomknives.com/magicsword.htmlhttp://hansoncustomknives.com/swordkit1.html http://hansoncustomknives.com/swordkit2.htmlhttp://hansoncustomknives.com/Sword.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Hall Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Matt I will be, just as I was when testing the gun, or testing my first gas burner, thats probably the most important thing is to remember not to let ambition over rule safety, for the gun I made a rig to fire from quite some distance............ dont get me wrong I do advise caution and learning all you can first, but there eventually has to be a fisrt try or there never will be anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taye Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Speaking as a person who came into blacksmithing thinking, "i'm going to make a sword!" i am infinitely happy that i did not rush this in any way. after i had gotten a few fires started i found out about this site and decided to read some stuff pertaining to the art. and now six months later, i berate myself for thinking that anything great could be attained with such minimal effort. its almost laughable. but as stated before please dont give up on us beginners, were not all as stupid as i used to be. P.S. Woody, love those links i almost spilled my beverage when i read the beginning bit of the first one. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I was going to stay out of this but I just can't.. There is a difference between "wanting to make a sword" and being GOOD at it..just about anyone can make a SLO (sword like object) and yeah, it'll work to a degree...but will it have all the subtle little things incorporated that makes a REAL sword fast in the hand, give decent point, be able to move the way the user wants it to? What about balance, flex, stiffness and all the other stuff that goes into it...Then there is the heat treating ..sure you can "send it out" but then you are trusting someone else with the most important part of doing this...and in doing so how can you say that you "MADE" the sword really. Granted...I get dozen's of requests a month from folks wanting to learn..and most I put in my circular file...those that do get a response (and that is maybe 5 or so out of 100), after the first interview, 99% of them decide that it is way too much work...cause I make sure that I have the forge going and it's about 120F at least in the studio and I position the "applicant" as close to the forge as I can safely and let them feel the heat....if they pass that test I hand them a piece of hot iron (as hot as I can stand it holding it bare handed"..if they take it and don;t drop it..they pass that test...also...if they ask if it is hot? they also pass...if they take it and drop it..they fail... After that then comes the real start of Hades on Earth and well..in the close to 50 years I have been doing this I have had three (3) "successful" students..one passed away very sudden, one went on and I kicked him "loose" cause he really didn't "need" any more real help....and the last one was a much more casual relationship and he passed on a little while back...(Brother Steve knows of whom I speak) In the mean time....If I do get someone that gets past the first set of tests...well the first time someone gets burned..they quit..the first time they get a grinder bump, they quit.. first time they get a slice..they quit...So,speaking as someone who has "paid their dues" to get where I am.. why should I waste MY valuable time and effort on some whiny baby that at the first time they get a "ow-wee" they are never heard from again? As my good friend Bob Loveless has said many times "We ain't making widgets here"..and when you dance with the Devil you ARE going to get burned...It's all part of the process... So I just have to realize the cold, hard fact that I better get everything (as much as I can anyway) out of my head and down on to paper while I can before Death comes calling cause the outlook on a viable student is pretty grim... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I think the real heart of the reluctance of people with the skills to teach this stuff is that they *KNOW* just how much time and effort it takes to do a good job of it. So many people don't seem to understand that when they ask you to teach them to be a good bladesmith it's like asking someone to give you thousands of dollars out of their own pocket. How many folks would say "yes" to that? All we are given on this earth is *time* so when someone asks you to spend a hefty amount of it on them you want to be sure they will not just throw it away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 To add to this line of thought, We also have to remember, that even if they have passed the beginning "tests" and are willing to pay or work for this training, this still means a lot of my time will also be invested to get the student to a point where they can have some skills. A time period that I should have been doing work myself, not over seeing anothers efforts. Creating a lot of down time away from my projects before a new student can do anything for my work of value, to repay me. This goes back to the comment of large amounts of time and money, even for the students that do work out. So when a student that has so far refused to learn the basics first, asks me to train them, I am more likely now to refuse them. Its because I have been "burned" <pun intended> too many times already. But if they have shown to have been making a personal effort themselves, showing they do read what has been made available to them, and have tried to practice, then I am all for helping them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Hall Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I am sure that anyone that has ever worked in a machine shop can relate to that very well Steve, I know I can, I am constantly being asked to make this part or that part, which if the people asking realized how much goes into some of these request I would hope they wouldnt even ask. Point well taken, and someone that has never even swung a hammer at hot steel is most likely I waste of your time and effort in regards to making a sword, and another thing that I have noticed in regards to this forum and im sure many others is a lot of people seem to ask a question, with out reading much first......... its rare to see a question posted in bladesmithing or heat treating that has not been discussed in detail in other threads, I am certain that must get very frustrating to you guys that do have so much knowledge on the subjects. But does there not come a time for a guy that is mostly self taught, learning by trial and error and what he can read to just go for it? After all you cant learn to make a good blade with out making a blade. Or do you feel like if someone has got to the point that they feel they are ready then they need to find someone that is experienced and start into it under their wing? I am not trying to be argumentive in anyway here, I am just curious as to what someone that has been there and done that feels on the subject, I have made knives, and i have made other tools involving the processes in heat treating, I want to try something more complicated because im sure that will make me better, I am willing to except that I may fail in my attempt ( it sure wouldnt be the first time for that ) so is there a safe way for someone like me to proceed in your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maillemaker Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 Nathan, it's not that we're discouraging new blacksmiths to learn, we are merely cautioning that forging a quality sword is a TREMENDOUS task. I have heard the phrase "you don't know your limitations until you exceed them" but without the basic skills of forging, making anything is extremely dangerous, making a sword even moreso. We are not against learning and growing in the trade of smithing. All we're forewarning is that if you're not ready, results could be dangerous, either while forging or if the object is going to be used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Hello Again: OK I am mostly self taught as far as blades go..My mentor and family friend/neighbor when I was a wee yonker Yankee, Herr Hauffmann was a blacksmith. Being Amish he really did alot of work by hand or by using me as a striker..we sharpened scythes, plowshares, made harness rings, redid picks, mattocks, all sorts of farm stuff...tired wheels..you name it we did it EXCEPT for making a sword..the Amish are a peaceful folk and he flat out said NO!... BUt I learned a lot from that fine Old Gentleman and what I learned was solid, basic blacksmithing and one of the first things I learned was to make decent "S" hooks and how to weld. The rest of the stuff as far as blades go..I taught myself...I started swinging a hammer at the tender age of 12..Herr Hauffman thought that he could get rid of that "English Kid" that kept bugging him all the time by putting me to work..boy that just made it worse (or better..depending on your point of view) and every free afternoon I had I was over there learning how to build and maintain a proper fire, upset, slit, bend, scroll and anything and everything he cold show me and after a while I was even able to "earn my keep" by doing the scythe and plowshare sharpening and re-pointing picks and drill bars...it was a great way to learn.. Yeah I went the rest of the way on making blades on my own and I was looking for answers and back then everyone was so tight lipped about it that they would give me a wrong answer so I wouldn't do anything "right"... Sure you can teach yourself..I did and it's a whole lot of work but you learn a bunch more stuff doing it by T&E than by having someone else show you the right way from step one...As Edison said..I never made any mistakes...I just learned alot of ways to do things that didn't work... I just don't want to see anyone get hurt or worse doing something that they aren't quite ready for... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I would like to take this opportunity to thank the many folks who have shared their thoughts, with a special thanks to JPH. It takes time to compose thoughtful contributions to answer questions that are asked on this forum, and I for one greatly appreciate that time and effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Huh?? Just telling it like it is...that's all....Yeah, there are folks out there that take offense to us being honest...hence the "Self Proclaimed Fancy Schmancy Master" on my sig instead my usual the "Passionately Purple Cactus Flower of Genteel Desert Manhood"... I and a few others were just torn into by a fellow that took offense to us keeping it real and suggesting that he actually LEARN how to even start with the basics before tackling a sword...Oh well... Maybe he shoulda just jumped into the deep end of the pool before he knew how to swim and then he may of been enlightened.... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Jim, one huge problem today is that most kids are not even allowed to do what you did growing up, let alone have the opportunity to do so. Parents are too afraid to let their little darlings get a boo boo, or hang around others unattended. So, they end up in front of the electronic babysitter to while away the days. Growing up I was blessed with wonderful parents, ones who allowed me to develop my creativity. Numerous times Dad would come home to see his tools out, and something built in the backyard. Early on it may have been a foxhole for war games, in that case he showed me the proper way to dig one, later it was my version of the Golden Gate bridge after a trip to SF. Mom had taught me leather working when I got into the Scouting program. I made my own knife sheaths as well as other projects, and I ended up teaching the LW merit badge at summer camp later. Around the time I hit high school Dad bought a forge, anvil, tools, and we got into smithing. Later on we signed up for BS classes at the local community college, and learned from Dave Nourot. I met Eldon ,through a friend of mine, after he had been in an auto accident. Eldon took me in, and started showing me the ropes of gunsmithing after I got off working at my 9-5 job. He worked out of his garage in a smallish shop, and after awhile he would allow me to work unattended. Several times he would tell me that he was going to bed, so lock up when I leave. I would get so deep into a project ,like restoring the finish on a heavily pitted pistol, that I would totally lose track of time. Over the years I have worked as a machinist / tool maker, plant maintenance mechanic, in a hydraulics shop, small dental metals foundry, and owned my own machine and fab shop for awhile. Through these jobs, and thirst for craft knowledge I have picked up many different skills that can compliment each other at times. I totally understand the patience analogy. many of the Scouts in my wood carving class at camp were taken aback when they found out that it was not a one day merit badge. One kid in particular really made an impression on me. He was the typical cut it out with the coping saw, and I am done with the neckerchief slide kids. I kept pushing him along, and by the end of the week he had done a very respectable job on his Comic Crow slide kit. What made the impact on me was when I was signing off his blue card, he said "Huh, I can do something. " That one sentence has stayed with me, and I will never forget it. Out of the hundreds of kids that went through my MB classes, that one kid made all of my efforts worth it, no matter what else happened with the others. My parents grew up during the Great Depression, and came from a time when you made a lot of what you needed. Between then, and now there was the rise of consumerism. I say then, and now, because I am seeing a resurgence in a lot of crafts. Through the Vegas Artists Guild, and other venues I am running into younger folks who are looking to be more self sufficient by making what they want. I also think that the more younger folks are allowed, or pushed , to try things for themselves they will learn that they are capable of doing something. Having people that are willing to teach these things is vitally important. I just wish I was still working in the Las Vegas valley instead of commuting to Utah. I would love to take your tests. In the mean time I may hit you up for some advice on making a straight razor Jim, you are a true craftsman, and your books will benefit generations to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Threads like this are the reason I have been a member for so long. There is simply no other way I have been aware of that puts so many folks together to dig into a common thread and post some great information. The quality of the folks that are on this forum are showcased in this thread. Thanks to each of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlissStreet Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Threads like this are the reason I have been a member for so long. And the reason that new members find it rewarding. It's also a good push to look into an area I hadn't considered previously. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I've started asking some people if they expect to go all the way through a video game in one session; or do they expect to have to play it a large number of times before they can get to the end? Smithing is one of those activities where *practice* makes a difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svaldrin Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I started blacksmithing when I was 6 yrs old, granted it was only once a year. I have been hooked on it and wanted to do it for so long. Yes I want to make a sword and knives; but I know I am not any were near good enough. What I am getting at here is are there any projects, exercises, and or tool making to expedite the process of learning "the basics"? On to my next question is there any good way to ask some one to teach you, so that you do not come off as a young and arrogant newbie? Also what is a common definition of "the basics" that should be learned before you even waste your's and his time in asking. Thank you so much for any replies and please forgive my ignorance and newbie questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Good questions..Remember I am old school and see it differently than younger folks, I believe in order to expect to be able to forge almost anything you wish you need a good body mechanics and developing muscle memory makes everthying later come easier. A few things to begine with,,,using mild steel. is to make a piece of round bar square and then back to round again,,This will add also to your skills with fire management. Learn to make a long and short taper, Again sq then rd and back again. Learn to punch holes hot. That may give you the opportuity to make some punches. As you do these you will learn more about how to move and how to stand at the anvil.It is really important at this time to attend something where you can see someone forging in person. Take notes and try and see how they move from fire to anvil , how they use tongs and hammer. note the grip they hold hammer with. Some of these things are on utube and a good guess is that a lot of the amateur videos on there will not be the way you should learn. Scrolls including riveting, and also forge welding are in your future. Heat treat can start as needed,,a center punch for instance.,Hot cuts, drifts punches as above will be needed. If you prowl through these forums you will find that a lot of folks have asked for help on some of these things and in most cases have received several answers. As you learn you will need instruction from time to time. Search through the coming events section and budget money for what ever you can find. You do not show your location but there are farriers and smithing groups almost everywhere. When you attend demos etc you can seek help from the folks there. If you sit and visit with someone by you at a demo ,rather than taking pics and making notes, you maynot get a lot of help as you will not present your self in the best manner. If you spend several sessions a week for a year you should develop skills and move on to wot pulls hardest at you. If you get an invite to a shop make sure and ask wot you should wear and bring. Including food and drinks for your self and if they would like anything. And again include notebook and camera if they allow pics. Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Hammer control and fire control are the two biggies for me. You should be able to move metal leaving the minimum of hammer dents and NOT overheat or underheat the stock while working it. So all practice is good practice for knifemaking; but I will say that doing long even smooth tapers is better practice than just bending hot metal. I start students out doing a simple S hook and nails; but tell them that everything they are doing is directly applicable to forging blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svaldrin Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Thank you all for the reply's. I will start using it, I got my forge up and running today and worked for a good while. I mainly just pounded round stock square and then back to round. I fell that I learned a lot today. Once again thanks for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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