"Of Shoes,and Ships,and Sealing Wax ..."

[beth]

later in the week ( still got two kids at home till wed...! ) i will straighten out a coil and make some punches - just simple little shapes - ones ive made before just loose their shape so fast man! i know you all say dip it in water each time etc it should be fine, but i do all that and still it just dulls right off and changes and looks and behaves rubbish after a bit - will it be becasue i just used mild steel and the coil spring will be much better..? again - so many apologies - every one of you has had this conversation with me before, but am still confused about the whole thing due to my own experience - even if its different from everyone elses (wouldnt be the first time..) i want one of these...



...quite a lot - to help me put marks and stuff on. is this one of your photos john?

[Jura T]

I had a day off from job today, so I decided to give a try to the ornament. You can see below how far I got. I've never done that kind of ornaments before.

I've tried drop tongs welding only once before, so I was kind of worried about it. It actually went pretty well. I managed to get a weld fairly easily all the four times that were needed in the pieces. It was the other welds where I failed. As you can see almost all the welds close to the branches started to open when I bent them. I guess I only had a welding heat close to the tip when welding the branches. I definitely need more practise...

[beth]

wow minataur (do we call you jura though?) you made a wicked start on that - it looks really good - my welds are actually def and certainly not up to that! keep posting what your doing wont you? - its great to see that zoom in straight after johns post! :)

[Jura T]

do we call you jura though?

Yes, please. I finally managed to change that weird Minotaur to my real name.

keep posting what your doing wont you?

I will, though I'll probably wont have time to forge before next week :(

[John B]

Hi Beth,
Answers in order. Yes I will probably be taking the course

Casehardening recap for you:
Take a spoonful of wholemeal flour, add two spoonfuls of salt, add a little water and make into a smooth paste.
Heat the end of the item to be hardened until the paste will stick to it,

When you have the item coated where you want it, heat the area to a bright red heat and plunge the item into cold clean soft water. The coated area will be appreciably harder.

An ideal way to make a quickie tool more hardwearing.

Yes the photo is my veining tool, there is also one at Westpoint and another simpler spring veining tool there also, The basic design of which, is probably more appropriate for larger work.

Don't forget your camera and notebook when you attend.

[beth]

thankyou john - i wont :)

[John B]

I had a day off from job today, so I decided to give a try to the ornament. You can see below how far I got. I've never done that kind of ornaments before. I've tried drop tongs welding only once before, so I was kind of worried about it. It actually went pretty well. I managed to get a weld fairly easily all the four times that were needed in the pieces. It was the other welds where I failed. As you can see almost all the welds close to the branches started to open when I bent them. I guess I only had a welding heat close to the tip when welding the branches. I definitely need more practise...

Hi Jura, good try for early attempts you are well on the way there.

With regard to the opening of the branches when you bent them, I wouldn't worry too much about that on this type of work.

By this type of work I mean ornamental, as in used for decoration, as opposed to structural where the strength is essential.

What is fairly obvious from the pics is that you are tending to forge more from one side than the other, resulting in an unequal blend at the joint.

Not knowing what sizes of materials and the overall dimensions it is difficult to make specific comments, but it looks to me like you tried to weld these scrolls together as finished scrolls, sometimes that is achievable and sometimes not.

What we are doing here is not straightforward as it first seems, and I am struggling to find a way to express what I am concerned about so you don't get off on the wrong direction. Whilst you are in the early stages and concentrating on getting welds to stick etc, down the line you have to introduce fitting, repeatability of elements, so it is as well to be aware of these considerations

What is important in branch welding scrolls is to first have a good idea of what the finished shape is going to look like, then you need a working sketch (preferably non flammable, on a sheet of steel marked on with permanent marker) to keep checking the progress to.

You then have to decide how you are going to make the overall item and the seperate component parts and where and how you are going to join them. And mark these joint areas onto your master template.

Then make all your individual component parts, to drawing plus scarfing allowances, and mark them where the joint will come from your master template.

Decide on the sequence of welds you will require to get to the finished form and start to think about welding them together,

Position the items to be welded together against each other at the joint position marked on and think how you are going to;

• Secure them together so they don't move when being heated
• Manipulate them in the forge to get an even heat throughout
• What sequence of blows you are going to use to unify the joint
• Scarf the ends when united
  

Secure them together: rivet, wire, tongs, bit of weld even, the tongs should be a good secure fit.

Manipulate them in the fire. To do this relatively easily without disturbing the fire too much, you may have to consider unrolling your scrolls far enough back so that the workpiece can be easily put into the hot spot in the fire. They can be reformed after welding to once again conform to the pattern.

Sequence of blows required, light taps working the the scale etc out from one end, then back into fire, consolidate the weld using blows from each side and edges alternately or you will end up with a thin side and a thick side (as in what you can see on your sample)

When this is done, scarf the end in preperation for the next addition.

and basically keep repeating until the overall required assembly is achieved.

I hope this helps, and look forward to seeing your continuing progress

[beth]

thats a brilliant talk through of that process john! i can only imagine how ace it feels to get all that together... must be a total buzz.

so you would reckon for stuff like this you'd really make all the separate pieces, then unravel bits of it to weld easier, like straighter, for easy access to fire, weld, then put back to position, rather than leaving forging/working on the ends of welded on pieces till they are welded on. sorry am communicating terribley - im just trying to build up in my mind a picture/some visualisation of how you would even go about it.. jura - i really look foreward to seeing how you get on with this, its so educational for everyone else! ps is your name anything to do with whiskey? :)

[John B]

so you would reckon for stuff like this you'd really make all the separate pieces, then unravel bits of it to weld easier, like straighter, for easy access to fire, weld, then put back to position, rather than leaving forging/working on the ends of welded on pieces till they are welded on.

Yep, no point in making it more difficult than you have to,

It's a basic extension of splitting something, and bending one piece away from the other so you can access it easier to forge it.(Taster day exercise 2 forging a fork, specifically drawing down the tines)

Don't be frightened about trying to make things easier for yourself to do, no medals for doing it the hard way when you don't have to. (and more chance of making a screw up)

May the forge be with you !

[jake pogrebinsky]

I'm incredibly grateful to everyone here,for asking these questions,for answering these same questions,for all your help in keeping all of our minds on the forging,even during those times that we're forced to be away from it.

THANKS!

Minotaur,Jura(Y-?),from the professional,technical perspective we all have a LOT to learn!Along with you,and everyone here,i'm sure,i've read John's analysis with great attention,it is of indescribable importance and value to all of us here(John,it's a real priviledge to have you comment so consise and in sush an expanded format,in the same time,thank you so much!).

But like i said,that's all technical stuff,and technically,we'll all of us,always,find ourselves lacking,it's a part of craftsmanship,i believe.
However,artistically,from the stand-point of the client,i think that your work is fantastic.
Simply because you've the TASTE to pick on these classy designs.And that's crucial for a good smith,friends,to have that taste,to choose where to go next,in which direction to pursue the skill,what technical methods to attempt and to practice.
THAT is our job,to choose the classiest work for the client,and it's vastly important.
Yes,of course,so is the execution of the work,and we all do work dilligently towards that.But the choice of what to learn is also very vital.And many are at a loss of where to take their forging,and such knowlegeble people as John are so few and far between...
Much time and energy is lost in vain.
So thanks again,everyone,for struggling to do what's right!

[jake pogrebinsky]

P.S.And i'm SO happy that the forgewelding comes up so often here-it's an excellent thing,that.Firewelding is that elephant in the room,it scares and worries all of us,but we all know that it's indispensible if one was to be truly free to forge whatever one wanted.
So it's a great demystifying,liberating exorcism!

[jake pogrebinsky]

Beth,i've a confession to make-i also struggle mightily with assorted too-soft punches and other struck tools.
Usually use spring steel of some sort,a snowmachine suspension,or a garage door spring,and it's all still too soft,and deforms easily.
The only way i know of seriously altering that would be to buy a quantity of super-alloys,H13,S7,D2,et c.Those work corker,last forever,so much so that it's almost cheating!
Meanwhile,you can look at this as twice the exercise-handling the plastic deformation of the tool as well as of the work!Kinda like those 3-D chess sets...(But i agree with John,we get no medals for masochism...(there IS a pleasant twinge of bratty sort of satisfaction in doing something the hard way )

[John B]

Beth,i've a confession to make-i also struggle mightily with assorted too-soft punches and other struck tools.
Usually use spring steel of some sort,a snowmachine suspension,or a garage door spring,and it's all still too soft,and deforms easily.
The only way i know of seriously altering that would be to buy a quantity of super-alloys,H13,S7,D2,et c.Those work corker,last forever,so much so that it's almost cheating!
Meanwhile,you can look at this as twice the exercise-handling the plastic deformation of the tool as well as of the work!Kinda like those 3-D chess sets... (But i agree with John,we get no medals for masochism...(there IS a pleasant twinge of bratty sort of satisfaction in doing something the hard way )

Thanks for your kind words Jake and Beth, I am no expert. and try to pass on my limited knowledge as and when I can. and yes I agree there is satisfaction in achieving something by not doing it the conventional or accepted way. Many times you will see people getting impossible results that seem to fly in the face of logic or your understanding of how it should be done, thats a joy of the craft.

And as for "Cheating", use what you need (methods or materials) to achieve your ends, there is no right or wrong way, just optional ways, and so long as they are safe for both maker and client,

[beth]

nice funny words from all your making me laugh this whole cheating thing is a very peculiar thing - achieve your ends is so right - its the main thing.. butYES we got to keep it claaaassy!! for the clients, for ourselves, for historic evidence when we are in the earth... i like doing things the hard way in life always have and its a strange position to hold, not always a positive attutude! thing is, you dont alwasy know youre doing it.... can be very anti zen, and very resistant, and very exhausting and counter energy making!.. this is a recent learning for me and for that reason it is FRESH in my head... we sometimes maybe need to do that whole river round a stone thing rather than the old fire with fire - stone on stone. but i really am digressing..
i love that we are right on the forgewelding now - its utterly fascinating to me what can be achived without electric - i am Not over this - i am loveing to see what jura does and then have john critique and help -it s perfect! double thanks
im glad (kind of - for me anyway)that you have rubbish tool probs too jake - for the cameraderie thats in it:) i will go ahead and try the coil cos its what i have, but i start with doubt in my mind always when making tools that they will fail - undermine my own self before i even finish it - bad news that is!!! bad approach. will be in there by the end of the week.....

dESPERATE to create the butt cheek tool jake too will that soft crap thing happen to that...? what shall i use???

[Jura T]

What is fairly obvious from the pics is that you are tending to forge more from one side than the other, resulting in an unequal blend at the joint.

Good point. When welding the branches together, I didn't pay too much attention on that. I also made the small scrolls about half way through before welding the branches together. This prevented me to rotate the piece in the fire before welding, which probably resulted in slightly uneven temperature. Next time I wont start the scrolls before welding.

Not knowing what sizes of materials and the overall dimensions it is difficult to make specific comments, but it looks to me like you tried to weld these scrolls together as finished scrolls, sometimes that is achievable and sometimes not.

I measured (from your pictures) that the original material was somewhere around 6mm*12mm. I'm starting with 10mm square and dimensioning it to those dimensions.

I'm sort of following the same sequence as what Mark Aspery has shown in the National Curriculum Grille Youtube videos. Below are two more photos of my steps.

Thanks for all the advices. Thanks also for the others for encouragement. :)

[John B]

Hi Jura, yes you are on the right track, what you are missing out on is the preshaping and forging allowances.

Here is a pic for reference.

Lets see if I can talk you through what I am trying to communicate.

Picture 1 I would taper the piece below the eye rather than leave it parallel, but leave the end bulky for the welding allowance, similarly with the small scroll,

Weld them together and leave enough material to form your scarf,

When welded to the next piece you can then thin it down to the finished size as you consolidate the joint.

In the picture I posted there is evidence of what I mean as you can see a very small bulge/increase in material thickness at 3 where the weld has been made. (Very small but it illustrates the point)


Your scarfs may be a little long, but if you find they work OK for you, that's fine.

In your picture 2, The top piece shows why I recommend the tapering to the end before the welding, as you can see the thinning effect. The bottom one has turned out much better. (more equal forging from each side as metioned )

You can also use the flatter to smooth the joints to blend them in nicely, a smooth transition is what I would be looking for.

All in all a good effort, you are on well your way

[Jura T]

In the picture I posted there is evidence of what I mean as you can see a very small bulge/increase in material thickness at 3 where the weld has been made. (Very small but it illustrates the point)

I remember thinking whether I should leave the material thicker for welding at some point, but then forgetting that idea. It is excellent that you point out that from the original piece. It is surprising how much thinking and work goes into such a small piece.

[beth]

ah !! another great explanation - it helps hugely with the visualisation.. jura i am totally piggy backing on your learning/working here - its brilliant..john it is so edyfying to have you refer to actual photograph when you explain. genius ! i can barely concieve of someone else doing all this let alone me, i dunt know why but it just strikes me as so cool and so elemental that i am overwhelmed and a bit intimidated. just read your reply jura whilst riting this one - i could not agree more with you that it is endlessly surprising how much thought and planning goes into this stuff, its just such an achievement of work..to do all this with fire and a hammer... i will carry on trying in my own silly way of course - i always try some kind of weld at the end of each fire use. i will get better sloooooowly... i want to do way way better ideas than i can (we all do i supose - thats why we keep trying) and it tries a girl like me's patience!
jake what do you do when your tools turn rubbish then- do you re- do the ends all the time??? :(

[jeremy k]

Beth - I have used mild steel for short run tooling and better yet, I use the hex stock that hex keys are made from ( forge to shape, let air cool and grind to shape, and use), yes they need to be dressed a bit as you use them (depends on if you keep them cool enough, then they distort less). I find that this is very easy and within the time constraints of the jobs. If I have a longer production run of tooling use, then yes I would get some H13 or S7 for the tool. I just accuired the mat'ls for the super quench recipe, and will mix some up (go figure at the moment I do not have a 5 gallon plastic bucket that is empty for use with this LOL). Then I can quench the mild steel tooling. Everyone that uses it that I've talked to swears by this. - JK

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Jeremy, I have a big piece off hex key, would that make a decent slitting chisel? I've been needing to make a good one. I have a small 5/8" rebar one I made, even though its hard its not ideal. One of the many things I still need to do. Yay, making more tools. lol

[beth]

thanks jk not want to sound like a complete dumbo but whats the super quench recipe ? and does it make a difference to life of the end of the tool? maybe then I can swear by it! yes jk i have long admired the lovely mark making tools on your gallery, they are immaculate...but from conversations with you in the past i reckon it just goes with the territory - all your tools/work come our neat and good and proper! not saying this cant be learned (in the main), just your organised methodical and skilled, and i quite frankly am not! was going to hex the coil as well to stop the constant lolling around and falling on the floor..

[John B]

Looks like you missed this Beth when you responded with source for Borax in the Ian's World Tour thread, The formula is at the top of the page there.

http://www.iforgeiro..._60#entry238030

Post #61 this thread

[beth]

thanks john no i didnt see that whatsoever - just saw moony saying something about not being able to get borax in the uk/through customs and i thought i would answer that! did not read any of that tour thread for ages, it takes too long to catch up sometimes!.... sure it is a wealth of interest akin to this useful little thread not sure what the blue soap and the shaklee basic would translate as.. soap flakes? and ?? so is this a good idea john?

[John B]

Anything that works is usually a good idea, and worth a try, this is a proven method.

I think the soap and shaklee basic are just to break down the surface tension of the water to steel contact making for a more rapid quench,

I am not sure what theUK equivelants would be, but I was given some advice by a member on this site that if You need to source any of the US items mentioned, then try to access a US airbase in this country as they have all this kind of thing and US brands available to them.

Meanwhile I'll stick with the flour and salt and water, or Kasenit 'cos its easier to access down here in Devon. Give it a try on the course if you want.

[jake pogrebinsky]

This discussion of a small welded element of Jura's is excellent,i'll say it yet again,and again,we're so lucky to have John aboard with us on that!

It reminded me of the best book on forging that i've ever seen(not that i've encountered many).It was an early 1900's textbook for British tradeschools.
It had VERY much of the text illustrated with great photographs,almost as if they were using the print the way that we use the internet now.
There was this chapter on forging a quetrefoil that was a revelation to me-a simple soapstone drawing on steel plate,everything offered up to it during the process,the allowences calculated from and according to it...So simple,and systematic.The way John is describing things reminded me of it.(And makes me remember the rows of forges in those photos,and the robed 8-9 year-olds with crew-cuts and their too-big for them looking ball-peens!How i wished to be one of them!(And ALMOST am,now,thanks to John:)))

Beth,when some inferior tool starts deforming in use i reforge it cold,between the heats of working.I'm in the habit of using a water can to cool the struck tools during use,and sometimes keep that moderate heat in the end of the tool instead,for warm-forging it,if you will.
Once it gets past that point,i grind it.
So,again,it IS a nuissance and a hassle,this,having the HEAT be your main differential between the work and the tool,but it is VERY educational.

Another alternative is using the parts of old machinery,that,of course,utilised much med.carbon steel in it's construction.Eyeball the parts with a view to their past,intended job,what forces were they built to oppose?There's much variations of hardness and toughness,also the many potentially useful shapes.

Between the fishing and having a tractor on the place i've barely had the time to read the forum,must utilise the opportunity to move the heavy stuff around here.
But,with machinery's help especially,i'll be back in the shop in no time now!