beth Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 ok, now i attempt again........ theyre not even that interesting, only in a very obtuse way!! i was pleased because last time i tried this i did it with flattened angle iron and the top piece rotated freely and did not lie on the floor (obviously) and this time at least i made a step in the middle so it all applys pressure to the mud. also bryan here are my dogs - am still waiting to see yours on another post... upload probs? the brown lurcher is called mouse and he is my darling and i adore him, he is not fully grown and will be 6 inches taller i guess - he is gentle and sensitive and highly intelligent, he radiates Calm!!! the black lurcher is called beats and she is a little anxious, a little obbsessive but a lovely girl and i love her dearly too, she is over 2 but not 3 yet, and the small terrier i have had longer than any creature i live with and she is nearly 17 and she is called goose, she is deaf and a bit blind but she is so cool and i love her for the way she conducts herself - she could not give a xxxx (and has never given one!) jake the picture of my eldest boy trying a new ball throwing thing he got (and then broke instantly) for black beats, is on common land near me - a taste of the shires for you - it is my favourite place to be becasue there is endless SPACE and there is nothing above you just huge skies. i spent a lot of time up there as a kid and i still walk there - there is not much growing but prickly gorse, and the earth sounds hollow and light its wonderful.. just the best place round here also i found this on an old derelict gate - i think the leaves have been vandalised, but i reckon it looks better for having been twisted about - i like it more, kind of messed up in the formal frame, i really like it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Beth, Thanks for your pictures! That is some beautiful English country side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Ok, so here are the pictures I promised. The knife is some of that 52100 that Jake had sent to me. The leaf key fob is some of the chain wrought iron. It's very good to work with. Forges like buttah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 replied on yr other fred bryan - thanks for the photos. that wrought iron sounds like fun.... i miust find that piece i was so generously given... so ashamed to have lost it...... it wont have gone far. i want the buttah experience :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I really like working with the old wrought iron. Its a shame there is only one place I know of that makes it still and thats in the UK. Cost way to much to order here in Alaska. The cost of shipping would kill me. But, there seems to be quite a bit laying around here. Just need to go out and find it. You have to get it high yellow hot to work it and not go below bright orange. I haven't forge welded with it yet, I may do some later today just to see how it goes. I hear its real easy to weld with. Now to be honest the wrought I have is chain, and that has very little silica and some of the chain I have is even millitary specification. So a high grade. Some that I have hammered out about two years ago still has not one little bit of a sign of rust on it yet. This stuff is awesome. If someone were to start making it in bulk here in the US again, I am sure they would find a ready made market for it. I know I would buy some. Here's another key fob I made from some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Hi Bryan, I think you will find that the wrought iron you get from the UK is not new, but re rolled from scrap. The alternative which is currently being made is pure iron, this is an alternative to wrought iron and is available in more sections and of a better consistency than the wrought that is available The manufacturers of this material do export this and other steels worldwide including the USA, Currently they are looking for a distributor who would be prepared to handle the pure iron they supply. They are also getting a new website together that features the pure iron as at the moment it is just treated as another general product in their range. It forges well above the mild and carbon steel forging heats and as its a superconductor, has a much more tolerant and longer forging time per heat. Forge welds a treat, and a lower cost than the wrought iron, the only drawback is you are advised to use tongs when forging it due to the conductivity and residual heat in the workpiece. It is also an approved replacement for Wrought iron in restoration projects. I know Jake was interested, perhaps you could get together form a distribution link from Alaska. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 john - was just about to say the same thing! surely legg bros would export the pure iron... that would be brilliant - bryan - you and jake should be the alaskan dealership :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Yes Beth, they already ship their other steel sections out there, including blade and tool sections, they just need someone to take on the Pure Iron side and promote/supply it. I know they are actively pursuing it, a few enquiries to the US's steel companies from the 'smiths over there may help them to get some over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 that would be extremely cool - the market over there must be huge compared to here... specially all the blade freaks - an opportunity for someone too i would have thought.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted September 2, 2011 Author Share Posted September 2, 2011 Hey!You guys all seem to be doing swell,making neat stuff!And discussing some very interesting things,too.Thanks,John,all that info about the pure iron is very interesting! Beth,fantasticly beautiful shire photos,dogs,kids,playing on the commons...Such a neat place!!! I like your structures,the mud looks good,proper,too,but just good.Man,i'd love to see MORE iron imbedded there,LOTS,obscene quantities of iron,being pulled into the mud by the unseen forces! Brian,great stuff,man,please keep us posted as the knife-work advances.You're doing great on leafage,too.I wanted to bring up some dead-simple swages for a raised vein here,with you guys,but am having difficulty finding time,AND accessing the site(it's working great now,but usually has a tendency to freeze and even shut down my computer altogether...). I've squeeled "uncle",i'm so screwed here on my chores,and a friend is supposed to bring out the cavalry,a forklift that i can use for some days(Fine homesteading tool,that!).I'll attack the woodpile with it,and,if successful,may end up ahead enough to at least write.Maybe even sneak into the forge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Well, speaking of which Jake here are some update pics on the knife. I got it ground to an over all 80 grit. Its starting to turn out well I think. The lowest grit I have for my wimpy belt grinder is 120. So the rest will be by hand. I've been thinking about exactly that Jake. I have a small amount of plate scrap from Alaska Steel. Just drops they had in the garbage. I could grind some veins into one and place it on the anvil and have at it. I'll work on one tomorrow and post about it. I think I can come up with something. Its wrought iron and when its hot I don't think mild steel will be an issue, some pretty soft stuff. John, thanks for the information. I never have worked with pure iron that may be fun to try sometime just for the experiance. I don't know if I want to do a dealership or distributorship. I kinda like being semi retired. But, it wouldn't hurt looking into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 Wow,Bryan,that's looking good!So,you're into the hand-sanding mode now,that's a nice break from the rough,smoky,hot-work,or the noisy and tense motorised grinding.How high will you take it before HT? Did you say that you guys get together at Marks periodically?It sounds like a tremendous resource,to be able to pick his brain about these specific ,current problems,while working on a given project. Bryan,i'm sorry,as usual i've my own take on stuff,and am rather attached to it.If you don't mind,i'd like to spout a bit on the subject(i hope that you'd not ever think me patronising,i really have a very poor idea of what impression people may get from this overly categorical views that i hold...). I'd not,under any circumstances,make a stamp-like plate for leaf-work.Even strictly mechanically a swage of this type would require force WELL above any han-hammering,and the danger of all the ills that creep in with mechanisation are very real there. Also,it's extremely difficult to index the work to the plate-type swage. Here's something that i've played with a few times,with fair results:You make a hardy tool that is post-like,rounded spherically on the top,with a groove across it.You can forge the groove in,and file it to shape/refine it some more.The result is this miniature set of buttocks,if you will. When used,you point the future leaf,and fuller it off,and then,while it's still round stock or whatever,you align it's long axis along the crack between the buttocks,and give it a VERY authoritative whack. Now,you have that vein that you can,by feel,insert into the groove again and again,without smudging it.It'll reach the bottom of the groove eventually,provide good resistance for forging,and still remain un-distorted. Now,with your vein indexed in that groove,you've a pair of fullers,that even using the flat of your hammer,you can make the sides of the leaf, on both sides of vein,very shapely,any way that appeals to you.These fullers are unbelievably effective in spreading material,and also in making and keeping the sides of your leaf hemispherical,giving it life,and volume(nice FAT edges on the leaf look great on this,also promoting the globulosity,the succulency(if you'll allow such term),by contrasting with the deep indents. One of the main advantages of this process is the ability to use the same swage to make completely uniquely different shapes,versus the stamping process that quickly becomes deadening... Or such is my ignorant,intolerant,rotten opinion I'll try to look for some photos,though they'll(of course!)not be anywhere near as sexy as this description...(If i could only forge HALF as well as i can spout!!!) Ok,since i'm cut off from forging,i'll make a brief report on progress on other fronts: Drying eating fish is going ok,this is the end of two weeks fishing now... Well,some other time,the pictures don't work today. But-folks,i'm the happiest man alive!I've managed to scam the use of a most glorious John Deere 480!!! Haven't gotten out of it's saddle till it got too dark to see!Lord,how i love tractors! Gotten all sorts of wood up the bank,and generally tearing this place up!It's REALLy close to forging in pure joy,both the proces and the result!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 bless you jake! can see you now tearing up your place getting organised with your tractor unit! wicked! very very pleased for you :) we have a little old fordson which does various tasks for us, and it is indeed something to smile/laugh about. Quality! very interested with your leaf vein tool description, and yep - you do talk great..! i do want to see pictures if you ever find them, which fuller tool are you talking about. do you know, i can still not make my leafs as luscious and hemispherical and thick edged as you talk about, and its long frustrated me, tell me how you do it !!! more words! yeah i know basically what to do, but mine just do not satisfy me. they improve slowley. please tell me the exact method and way of thought that go into yours, i know you'll have one. the deep middle vein is good though and not a horrid oppinion at all, because ive always thought that the tool that has the marks all on there, can only look identicsl, you can only vary the agle you pop the work on it, and that aint what i want personally. actually, LOVELY idea about pushing loads of crap onto the mud, i am very excited about that idea, as usual stupid old time is short as it is for alot of us on this thread! comrades!.. but i will obbsess about this for a while... hanks for that :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 i want my leaves to appear like they are made of plasticine, they look too brittle and hard.... some of the best forged things ive seen look like you could stick your finger into the material and push it right in, i LOVE that way it looks.. like you could sink yr teeth in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 BP0921 Ok,i managed to get one photo in,cool! Now,Beth, this is hardly an exemple of anything worthwhile,but just makes it easier to discuss the principle. The more convex the "buttocks" are,te more aggressively you can deform the parts of the leaf that lay on them. And,if your blank is slightly larger,and you don't hit the very perimeter,the edges,then the original thickness will remain there.Allowing,i think,for all kinds of cool possibilities!click here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 ah ! i understnad!!! you use that veining tool also as your fuller for the leaves, i had imagined it was flat... thats very easy then! i can entirely see how im going to get what i want using exactly that. chubby bouncy supple looking leaves with smooth elastic rounded edges.. that you could bite if you were that way inclined! you really do have clear ways of thinking and talking jake - thanks whole heartedly :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 Can't believe how many mistakes i've made writing one short message,even your name,Beth,sorry 'bout that Yep,can't be simpler,and the swage itself is so easy to make that it would be a sin not to make a slightly different one for each project! It'll make the stuff so much more Bespoke ,and,one can easily stumble upon the unexpeced coolness in the process of exploring and experimenting! (I just love the poetry in your English,Beth,and what's a blacksmithing without poetry?(or anything else ). All in all,it's a way to swage-forge,vs swage-stamp,which i see as important.The human touch in work. And,(getting back to the very beginning of this whole crazy thread),a stick on the wheel of the gross mass-producers.We won't give up the fight that easily.I love to try thinking of ways to come up with a decent-looking forged elements that'd be a nightmare to mass-produce Actually,those guys may be quite vulnerable.As cheap as they sell their crap,they probably can't afford to get too elaborate with tooling or engineering Let's get'em! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 YES - its that viva la difference that you only get from the hand made, or the non repeatable, deliberate or otherwise - although ive got to be careful here or i will feel the wrath of the purists who require repeatability... (youcan elect not to repeat though surely to goodness??) and how satisfying to make a new tool each time simply if for no other reason to confound the item as a product The Man can micro manage, amusing and freeing to repeat absoluite;ly nothing! i cant stop thinking about pushing loads of gorgeous iron items into that mud now - see !!? ive no time top implement it though... gRRR! not yet.... so with stamping - is this generally the thing them? will it detract to be using stamps do you think? i quite like small decorative marks from stamps, but admitedly they look best when all slightly differing in depth and orientation, the idea not being to repeat exactly the same mark in exactly the same way each time...? its not Bespoke ( i love that you like that word, i know you laugh when you type it in!!)( ps and re poetic languge - blimey - your the master of my language - never mind yr own - i cant get enoiugh of your descriptions - actually just had a funny thought about your book thats never going to happen, i could pretty much print an entire tome by you, just from what youve written on here!! - how hilarious, and you wouldnt be able to stop me... ) (im joking OF COURSE ) i can almost feel making my leaf on that tool, am itching to get and do it... i can feel the fabulous 3d nature of the result before its even happened :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 NOW you're thinking,Beth!We'll write the book together,and if someone has a problem with it,i'd just tell them-Hey,don't look at me,it's that crazy blacksmith chick over in England!And you can do the same thing,and tell them to go complain to the ravens,or State Troopers,or whatever,over in Alaska somewheres... Let's write it from the perspective of this mythical character,along the lines of Good Soldier Schweik-annoy the ...out of everyone!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jura T Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 As Promised for you Jake, some pictures from our scrap pile of some ironwork, Quite a scrap pile! Would you happen to have a photo showing how the small flowers are attached to the scrolls, like in the picture below? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 Ha!The photo of my new love has finally loaded! Beth,you just have the coolest toys,and now it turns out you've even a fordson!Wish i knew more about tractors,can only think of 8 or 9N,or the like,is yours similar?You lucky people,anyway!How many hp is it? Anyway,i,too,am king,if only for a day! (Now if i could only get it started this morning,my joy would know no bounds...But even just sitting there it's LOVELY!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Jake,I use an old trailer ball for the very same thing! I never claim to have invented ANY smithing tool . It has ALL been done before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 Trailer ball sounds great,man.Another good initial stock is a brocken-off stub axle(anything to avoid forging in that shoulder to sit in the hardy hole properly . But actually mild is just fine,just may need dressing/correction in the process. "Inventing" forging tools is similar to inventing one's genetic code(true,in some remote philosophical sense ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 jake! you are just the best coolest thing. !! from the perspective of - who is he??? i got to know becasue it will be just right... i reckon we could do a fabulous stack of books.. it would amuse me greatly! your ideas are wonderful i think i may have to make you my muse.. as for the tractor, she's looking good! i bet your in yr element heaving all that stuff about - so efficient! so much fun..... as for our fordson im not sure which year it is which exact model, its a fordson major so not the really early, i dont know enough about tractors either, but i bought this one for my husband, its a bit tatty and i dont have a photo(will of course take one next time im down the farm) butits great - we run the sawbench off it mainly and shift things about occasionally, heres one like it hang on... appalingly!! im not sure either of horse power!! i really should know that stuff to tell you, - 20 or 30 or something?? they were lightweight little tractors. i like all the small vintage masseys as well, i know not what year, there are loads of them up by me.. i dont use it like my husband does... i did drive my friends big county out through the woods the other day though with him -he cuts trees down there - made me laugh out loud with hapiness - no cab just four big wheels its the sound the smell the looks - tractors are yum sorry if two pictures went in there - bumped the button jake - did you get her started?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Wow, holy smokes an stuff. Great stuff everyone. I had thought of that exactly OnR. I can get an old beater trailer hitch ball and once I grind/burn/whatever the chrome off I can cut a slit down the middle and put a square one inch shank on it. Just hammer the threaded part square should do it. Jake, thank you for the pic and great explanation. I understood exactly what you meant. I need to get some larger mild stock and some case hardener like Kasenit. I understand it works quite well for a surface hardener. I understand I can do a case hardening with pea sized hardwood charcoal put it in a steel box and close it up and put it in the forge for a few hours and that will give a surface .0050 thick hard shell as well. But, I don't know if I want to get that deep into things as yet. Maybe someday when I'm smelting my own ore. Which I really want to do at some point in the future. Just need to find a good supply of black sand. I know its here. I've seen it. Even found a basalt rock in my back yard that had iron pyrite in it. Way to go with the fork lift. You'll have a big pile of fire wood stacked and ready to cut up in no time. I love big toys like that. I could use a small front end loader actually. I would be able to clear the lot in a day. Great Tractor Beth, One of my neighbors has one just like that but its a John Deer. Mid 60s model. Runs great and he sure does like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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