tlreif Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I decided to make an old school tool box to take my tools to old cow town museum when I work the blacksmith shop. So in that theme I figured why not make my own nails and hardware. I consider my forging skills to be decent. Not as fast as many. But certainly faster than a lot. And fairly acurate in getting the results i want. But I must say making nails is a very humbling experience. I have watched many videos on utube where it is done in one heat. Well I was unable to get it in one heat. It takes me 2 heats but I am getting accurate results. I guess practice will do it. I certainly can see that it is a great forging practice. Thoughts? Happy forging everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I have been on a nail making spree for a few weeks now. I have a couple small things that helped me get to the one heat pace. if the header hole is too small for the stock you are using you will lose all the heat doing a taper that fits. Although it is bad form and dangerous, someone here may yell at me, I leave the cut off in the hardy hole while I taper the nail so I don't lose time. I also found that it is easy to be impatient with getting enough heat in the stock. I get a little extra heat in them first. I use about a 1-1/2 lb hammer with a short handle and whip it harder then I normally would on such small stock. it keeps hotter that way. When the taper is done I eyeball where to cut. cut almost through, then slip it in the header and twist it loose from the stock. this is when the heat really goes fast so don't sink it deeper in the header than you have to. It also now helps to have that big hammer as you are down in the dark red range now and you need a heavy stroke to put a little extra heat in the head for the last 2 or 3 strokes on the head. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hey Teeny if you work off the far side of your anvil the hardy will not be under your hammer hand and it will be safer. I am assumeing that you are working on a London pattern anvil. Show me a few nails at our next meeting. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Two heats is very good! Most of the best nail makers that I have seen on film use two heats... one to form the taper and another for the heading heat. Certainly larger nails can be very different depending on just HOW large they are. I like a nice bright orange or even yellow heat for forging my nail heads. You won't get that if you try to rush them in after the tapering and your heads will suffer... so will your header and your hammer arm. I am an accomplished wood worker as well as a smith and I tend to be quite picky about my nails: exact size, taper, tip, etcetera. So, for me, quality trumps speed most any time. Many of the fastest nail makers I have seen produce results that would mostly be rejected in my shop... so don't be afraid to take an extra heat or even two to get quality results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hi Todd, Have you had a look at "nail making anvil" on google? If you were to make many of these you would have had special tooling and sized stock to sit that tooling. I am sure if all were set up to do this a one heat nail would be a quick simple thing for you. The issues we have is that our tooling is general because we do not do A certain activity all the time..if we did then we would have a more or less permanent set-up for that operation. As Bigfoot says...a spike is different from a nail and if you go larger I do not think the forge gods would mind several heats. I have seen cutlery anvils where the "anvil", such as it is, would be very long and tall and have maybe four transitions and shaped hardies on top...all in place all the time (think drop hammer with die stages)...the smith/billet moves progressively down the anvil as the blade is worked. We all do things we should not do..from hitting cold iron to leaving the hardy in to whatever.....sometimes the job requires that to be so and other times we are taking risks with no benefit (or worse...risks with not idea that they are risks). I think your doing fine and should worry more about the price of tea in China or if it will rain tomorrow and less on how many heats it takes to get to the center of a nail-pop. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silkhopesmith Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I decided to make an old school tool box to take my tools to old cow town museum when I work the blacksmith shop. So in that theme I figured why not make my own nails and hardware. I consider my forging skills to be decent. Not as fast as many. But certainly faster than a lot. And fairly acurate in getting the results i want. But I must say making nails is a very humbling experience. I have watched many videos on utube where it is done in one heat. Well I was unable to get it in one heat. It takes me 2 heats but I am getting accurate results. I guess practice will do it. I certainly can see that it is a great forging practice. Thoughts? Happy forging everyone. For years I ran a shop specializing in reproduction of historic hardware. We made over 200,000 nails while I was there. I know firsthand that nailmaking is not easy. It normally took a new smith three or four months of nothing but nailmaking to get "good" at it. That meant at least 60 per hour (including welding the short pieces of nailrod), all straight, all within 1/8 inch of target length, all consistent weight. Making the nail in one heat is not an option at those rates, but a requirement. After several years 90 to 100 per hour was not uncommon. For a hobbyist, making nails in two heats is fine. That is the only way to learn. Learn to make good quality nails first, then speed up. If you really want to get better, you have to practice, practice, practice. Oddly, it helps tremendously to have another smith making nails next to you. Even with friends, the resulting competition can speed both smiths up dramatically. There are several details about the tools that can make a difference too, but most of the secret is practice and motivation to improve. There are a couple of U Tube videos showing Colonial Williamsburg smiths making nails in one heat- well worth a look. They make it look effortless, as it should be after 50,000 or so. They started the same way you are , except they had a tough taskmaster watching over them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 True confessions. When I was first learning, I would forge a taper, guess where to cut it, and after wringing it off, let it choke in the header hole, and try to get the head shaped. I found that the heads were of varying sizes, which I did not care for. Also, an occasional nail would fall right through the header. Embarassing. Furthermore, I didn't have very good control over the nail length. I took some clues from a friend, Winslow Morgan, and I watched Peter Ross at work. First, the nail is pointed. On the near, relatively sharp anvil edge, make a soap or correction pen mark on the anvil face maybe 5/8" or 3/4" in from the edge. Place the point on the mark and shoulder with quarter turns ON TWO SIDES ONLY with half-face blows, meanwhile continuing the taper. You will get a cattywampus head and gain some length. Cut, insert, use angle blows right away to center the head. If it's a clinch nail, don't quench. I use a Presto brand whiteout correction pen to draw a concentric square around the header hole. That helps to keep the head centered while I'm hammering. Using this shouldering method, the nails will not need to arbitrarily choke in the hole, and they will be of like length. It takes me more than two heats to get a good one. I keep workin' at it. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Nails...they can be mighty frustrating to say the least! When Tom Clark was alive and attending the different conferences across the country they would have a little friendly competition during the "open forge" time. He could make 4 nails, with a nice head, in ONE heat. I never got to see this personnally but several of my friends did see it and on numerous occasions. I have heard of others able to do this also. And yes, the head was consistant and uniform. I can make them in 2 heats but not consistantly, usually 3 heats but I am getting there. I've always been told and always tell my students that every time you light your forge make at least a dozen nails and/or leaves, and to do a couple of forge welds. Makes for better hammer control. ( now I don't always practice what I preach....shhh ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 i figure two heats is about normal for a person who is not makeing nails all the time... i make a few nails now and again but its not in the 50 thousand range i figure as long as it dosent take you 7 heats your doin fine (saw that at a demo once figured the guy hadnt a clue about what he was doin) they usually take me 2 heats sometimes i can get um in one but ime usually not in that big a hurry..usually make nails as demo (short enuf that people will watch thru the whole thing) if you work a few irons in the fire at a time it still goes fast.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 When I teach a basic "intro" class at the local University as part of the "Fine Arts Metals: armourmaking" class the instructor wants her students to make nails as their second project the first day. (First is an S-hook so they can see that they can forge, second is 2 nails and third is a chile pepper from pipe). 1 heat, 2 heat----bwahahahahaha the new students take a heap of heats---but I am more interested in control rather than speed this first class. I even have them cheat by using a swing arm fuller to mark where the taper should stop and the head begin and then work on them to keep the head stock *OFF* the anvil whilst tapering the body of the nail. Even so we generally have a student or two taper the head stock and drive it through the header. Making my mastermyr chest took 40 hand forged nails and teaching this class means I'm building up a coffee can of them---slowly. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I take 2 heats to do them, and I make a crapload of em... While I can make them in a single heat, I find it takes just as long to do them in a single heat and more work... If you run your taper in heat 1, then cut and head in heat 2, you get more accurate results, and don't have the frantic hammering to get the taper followed by beating your brains out to get the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlreif Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 I take 2 heats to do them, and I make a crapload of em... While I can make them in a single heat, I find it takes just as long to do them in a single heat and more work... If you run your taper in heat 1, then cut and head in heat 2, you get more accurate results, and don't have the frantic hammering to get the taper followed by beating your brains out to get the head. Yes thats exactly how I ended up doing them. I got to the point where I was getting very similar results. Thanks for the comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 OK, I am going to have to do some digging now. Years ago when I got started messing with smithing I was told that the old time nail makers could make a standard nail with 5 hits of the hammer. I am guessing 3 to do the taper, one to cut, and one to form the head. This may have required some specialized tooling like maybe a header that had a cup that would form the full head as the metal was driven flush into it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 OK, I am going to have to do some digging now. Years ago when I got started messing with smithing I was told that the old time nail makers could make a standard nail with 5 hits of the hammer. I am guessing 3 to do the taper, one to cut, and one to form the head. This may have required some specialized tooling like maybe a header that had a cup that would form the full head as the metal was driven flush into it? I suspect that the 5 hits were to form the head only... that would be just right. Five hits for the whole nail is hard to imagine. I know I have never seen anything close to it done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 If you are going to make a lot of nails, you might wish to consider making a nail making station like the one at Colonial Williamsburg. It has a little anvil, a tool to notch the nail rod, an interchangeable header, and a flip thingy to flip the nail out of the header. Point the rod on the little anvil, notch it on the hardie.. the flat top of the hardie limits the depth of the cut, break off the nail in the header, wack the head of the nail four times, then use the flip lever to flip the nail out of the header. Repeat. My humble understanding is that the nail making station was used sitting down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silkhopesmith Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 If you make one of these nailer's stations, make sure the stump is mounted SOLID. With that small an anvil, it's the stump that keeps the whole rig from bouncing with each hammer blow. Many of the 18th century English nailers used a large piece of stone to set the tools in. You'll get twice as much done on a solid base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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