doobado Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hey everybody, I'm doing some research for something I'm writing relating to Blacksmiths. If you could answer any of my questions, I would really appreciate it. -What kind of metal is generally believed to be the most difficult metal to forge? -What item (preferably a blade) that can be made in a day is generally considered most difficult to make? -What are some techniques/methods (specific name, if you know it) that are generally considered the most difficult to execute? If you know what kinds of information I'm looking for and you have other factors the attribute to the difficulty, please let me know. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Those are some pretty interesting questions, but to answer them all, I'd have to say, "It is all just a heat, a hold, and a hit, and then it practically makes itself." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Yep, that's it in a nutshell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I have trouble putting my pants on in the morning, it can be difficult if you don't do it one leg at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fciron Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Those are some pretty interesting questions, but to answer them all, I'd have to say, "It is all just a heat, a hold, and a hit, and then it practically makes itself." Brian, you left out the hard part. "a heat, a hold, a hit, and stop when it's finished." I don't believe there is a universally recognized standard of difficulty. Small mechanical parts, such as locks, present one type of challenge, while big pieces of steel present another type of challenge. Blades present an entirely different sort of challenge. According to my 'Forging Industry Handbook' beryllium is the least forgeable of the forgeable metals used in industry. However, their definition of forgeable is 'the tolerance of a metal or alloy for deformation without failure, regardless of forging pressure requirements.' I am pretty sure that most blacksmiths would define hard to forge as either 'requiring a lot of pressure' or 'tending to fall to pieces at the most inconvenient time'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Now that is just teasing Brian! Although you are right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hey everybody, I'm doing some research for something I'm writing relating to Blacksmiths. If you could answer any of my questions, I would really appreciate it. If you know what kinds of information I'm looking for and you have other factors the attribute to the difficulty, please let me know. Thanks again! Short answer IMHO is there will be a different answer from each who read and respond to these questions, -What kind of metal is generally believed to be the most difficult metal to forge? The one you are currently having difficulty with, once you have mastered dealing with that one, you move on to the next. -What item (preferably a blade) that can be made in a day is generally considered most difficult to make? The one you cannot succesfully achieve mainly due to your skill level --What are some techniques/methods (specific name, if you know it) that are generally considered the most difficult to execute? Again the ones you have not yet mastered, this could range from forging a simple smooth surface, to complicated forge welding of scrolls to leafs to stems. And that is why blacksmithing is addictive, there is always something more to learn and achieve. My understanding is forging is simple, you get it hot and hit it, you can only heat a limited length at one time, and you can only do one operation at a time when working the metal, each heat and work the metal, takes you further down the path to a completed item or form, and if it goes wrong, leave it in the fire and destroy the evidence. SIMPLES ! (Tongue in cheek!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 You're "reaching out," so the answers are going to be as nebulous as your questions. Don Hawley, an industrial smith, said that some of the alloys he forged were harder at a heat than mild steel is at ambient temperature. Some of that material is "classified." I can hog out a knife blade in maybe a half hour or so. However, to heat treat, sand, polish, put on a handle and guard, and sharpen, takes me much longer than a day. I can put an upset in the middle of a bar. I never found it to be much fun, but that's just me. David Pye wrote a book titled, "The Nature and Art of Workmanship." He classes blacksmithing as "workmanship of risk," meaning that at any point, you may blow it. If you reduce the stock too much, you've lost the necessary mass; you got nothing. You may be on your last heat, and you burn the iron. You got nothing. Good luck with finding cogent answers. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Ok doobado first a question for you. Are willing to invest years of hard work and sweat? answer Yes you will be able to answer the questions soon. No just not going to get it grasshopper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Metals that are hard to hot forge: Mercury, U235, Magnesium Hard techniques: Pattern welding and working of wootz come to mind as does very delicate fiddly ornamental work. Now making a blade depends a lot of technology levels and in many cultures/times a smith did not make blades! He forged the blade "blank" and someone else did the grinding/polishing and someone else did the hilting and someone else made the sheath and being caught doing another craft's work could be grounds for your shop to be pulled down and destroyed. Also remember that a smith working alone was about as accurate as going into a modern hospital operating room and seeing a surgeon working alone. (The japanese sword is still done this way by traditional makers---the smith is not the polisher!) I can give you a lot of details on historical smithing and suggest some books to read on it if this is going to be based of a historical model and NOT Hollywood or some video game. (I spent the last two weekends building and running a circa year 1000 bloomery to smelt iron from ore in my back yard.) So how about some DETAILS Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 For me the hardest stuff to do is the stuff you are just trying out. The first few items or technigues might be trash or turned into something other than intended later. There are metals like Sodium or Potassium which are Alkali metals. They are pretty soft at room temperature but still in the "metal" family. I would not put them in the fire and definitely stay clear of the slack tub as they are pyrophoric. These are probably not really forgeable or useful once forged but once again they are in the metal family. Forge welding would probably be on your list. And amongst the forge welding joints there are probably some more difficult arrangements, sizes, handling of two different pieces. I saw on line where they were forge welding the top of an anvil. 5 or six people swinging hammers with sparks flying. So maybe that is another option. Working in a strike team as a difficult technigue? By the way I know very little about either of these topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Those are some pretty interesting questions, but to answer them all, I'd have to say, "It is all just a heat, a hold, and a hit, and then it practically makes itself." Brian, Maybe some day the stuff will make itself. For now... I still have to think, move, heat and hold it pretty darn deliberately to make things work out. I do see where I hit things a lot easier and take more time to be accurate than when I started. My three pound hammer used to wear me out but now it feels about right. My lighter hammers are too much work! Back to the questions. IT is all the subtle stuff that makes the differnce perhaps. one or two good well placed hit vs several poorly place hits. Keeping minimal contact with the heat sucking anvil and hammer in order to preserve your heat. Heating fully without burning... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 The problem here is the qualifier "generally believed." Ask ten blacksmiths the same question and you'll get at least eleven different answers! Lets' try a literary tack instead. What is it you want your characters to do or be? You want "a smith so good he can X?" You want "a weapon so rare that Y?" Something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 As Brian and John have suggested there is not much that can be done with a bit of metal; you can cut it, join it, make it thinner/thicker or bend it. once you have mastered all of these, the difficulty often lies in deciding which order to do them to achieve the desired result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 The hardest metal for me so far, has been stainless steel. I was making a steak turner for a friend and a blacksmith friend told me take it home and work it then bring it back and use my power hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferguson Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I will second the stainless steel. I saw a guy wear himself out forging 3/4 inch diameter stainless down to maybe 3/8 inch. He was only drawing out a few inches, and that was with a good power hammer. He literally had to sit down, and he quit after making one piece. Now this guy has a regular job, so does not forge every day. But it was impressive how hard he had to work to get it done. He was trying to help me out on a project, and after I saw how hard it was to make one, I rethought the design and fabricated several of them out of pieces welded together. The limited work that I have done with stainless would support stainless as a common material that is hard to do anything with. The only part that I found easy was welding it. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doobado Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 Thanks everybody for the feedback, advice, and answers. In researching blacksmiths and forging, I have come to respect the craft even more so than I did before. Thanks again for being so helpful, and any more answers would be greatly appreciated as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Sir a warning! research can lead to the obsession that has got us all here, I have seen it before, just curious folks became smith folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Some metals I have found hard to forge are Architectural bronze it has a very narrow forging range Too hot it crumbles too cold it cracks and you only have about 400 degrees of working range. Really low quality wrought iron is hard too it cracks when worked too cold and needs to be reforge-welded to it self over and over as you work it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Inconel is hot-hard, like stainless. D-2 has a very narrow forging range - hot-hard below said range and brittle & crumbly above said range. Wootz must be forged carefully if one is to get the best visual patterns from it. The inital cake must be decarburized prior to working or it will crumble. The kris knife has some extra steps in forging which are not needed for a straight dagger. Leaf blades are also a little more challenging than straight blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Really low quality wrought iron is hard too it cracks when worked too cold and needs to be reforge-welded to it self over and over as you work it. I agree, I know it's near blasphemy to say it but I absolutely hate Wrought Iron! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Mokum gane is fun. Get the temperature right and the layers are distinct on grinding, get it wrong and you have a puddle. The temperature is rather cold too, just glowing hot. Not suited for a blade, but suitable for tableware, tea pots, jewelry, and furniture for a blade. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 interesting on the stainless. I forged a handle on some "baked potato cooker" Thingys. NOw they were only about 1/4" or slight more round bar. I squared tapered and put a handle on each end. This did not seem to be any different than the other steels I have used. Or at least not significantly so. Now I do know stainless has a higher strength at higher temperatures but even then it seems that forging temperature takes metal strength so low that it should be mostly irrelevant right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Nope; there are some alloys out there that when you heat them up to their forging temp and hit them with a 4# hammer they just laugh at you! 1/4" stock is generally small enough that you can bull it around with a decent sized hammer even in a stainless. Try 1 1/4" stock with a hand hammer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 On a lighter note, one of the most dangerous metals to forge is the metal strip in money, I believe it can affect/reduce your movement for up to 20 years! Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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