Working at the anvil.

[double_edge2]

....never mind :rolleyes:

[mat]

i was measured once for a suit the tailor asked
"is sir to the left or right?"that works for me.

[John McPherson]

No, No, No! You've got it all wrong! You have to harness the mystic powers of the anvil.

You point the horn of the anvil in the direction of the spirit of what you want to make. (Using the bending fork in the hardy hole as a rear sight is optional for beginners.)

Scottish dirks? Aim for Edinburg. Bowies? Point 'er towards the Alamo.



And if it turns out that what you are hammering out looks like useless crap, you are probably lined up with Washington, DC.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Larry H]

Tradition says horn to the right,........However, reality says you should " know your way around the anvil ",....which means if you use your anvil to its full potential you will be walking around it to take advantage of every angle. If you took the time observe the actual shape of it ,....it and a hammer can do amazing things, without all the tooling everyone seems to " need ". Can you make a shovel with just a hammer and anvil ? yes ,... shutter dogs ? yes. I have even made tongs with the hole punched via the anvils horn ! ! ( it was a new anvil with a pointy horn,....did it on a bet ,...and won,..he still uses them to this day 25 years later ) So the best advise I can give anyone is to learn
" your way around the anvil "

[Old N Rusty]

It dont make me no nevermind, which way the anvil points as long as the flat side is up.

[ThomasPowers]

"Tradition says horn to the right" What tradition? Who's tradition?---This website has world wide participation! What about all the smiths with european double horned anvils used for centuries? Probably far more of them than London pattern anvils out there. Folks using japanese "block" anvils with no horn? All these folks must have got it wrong over the centuries---guess they didn't know this "tradition".

John, I wanted to make "out of this world" blades and so oriented the anvil with the horn pointing straight up. It does have the virtue of keeping the face clean of scale but it is a lot harder to keep the blade and hammer head oriented! Might have to switch around and try to make devilishly good blades instead...

[Bob S]

"Tradition says horn to the right" What tradition? Who's tradition?---This website has world wide participation! What about all the smiths with european double horned anvils used for centuries? Probably far more of them than London pattern anvils out there. Folks using japanese "block" anvils with no horn? All these folks must have got it wrong over the centuries---guess they didn't know this "tradition".

Just because there are smiths who use anvils with two horns, and that there are smiths who use anvils with no horns, doesn't mean that there couldn't be a tradition among the smiths who use anvils with one horn.

The 'tradition' (if there was one) would be based on the work habits of those *having* horns on their anvils. If you have two horns (or none) the question would be moot.

Bob

[ThomasPowers]

But when you say "Tradition" is seems to indicate a single one; perhaps rephrase it as: "one tradition for london pattern anvils is to orient them with horns to the right---for right handed smiths".

I too work on a traditional anvil sometimes---it was based on on in the Roman Museum in Bath England, and can be found in early medieval norse smithies as well as high middle ages and renaissance smithies and there is even an example just down the road from me dating to the Spanish Colonial period here in NM, USA. I've also been told that it is spot on for the French and Indian War in early US history. It has no horn. Many people have told me it's not a "real" or "traditional" anvil-----2000 years of documented use as one vs 200 for the london pattern????

"Tradition" is often used as a club in the blacksmithing world when often it's more of a rubber chicken!

[David Einhorn]

I am right handed and started out with the horn on the right because a professional smith who was demonstrating said it was better that way so that you can see what is being bent. That did not work for me. After a while I turned the horn to the left. That way I had easier access to the body and heel of the anvil where I did most of my work efforts.
I do not feel that having the horn to the left has impeded my ability to see my bends or to fuller on the horn.

[mtforge]

I'm right handed and have the horn to the right. When I started I had the horn to the left but when I made s-hooks or anything that needed a curl/loop I needed to straighten it from the corkscrew. I noticed when I have the horn to the right my left hand was straight with the curve of the far side of the horn so it's a straighter bend for me and I can work loops better around the horn. The hardy hole also lines up better with my tong hand. I still work up and down the length of the face as needed

[thingmaker3]

"Tradition" is often used as a club in the blacksmithing world when often it's more of a rubber chicken!

The anvil horn is traditionally pointed at a rubber chicken? :blink:

[macbruce]

I never gave it much thought.......I simply address the anvil the way I always do.....It matters not ;)

[Dave Budd]

I prefer to do most of my work on a square stake anvil, so orientation doesn't come into play there. I do have a London Pattern anvil set up near by for so I have access to the bick or hardy particularly, and that has been set up bick/horn pointing towards the forge. I say 'towards the forge' cozit's to the left or right depending on which way I approach it from the forge

To be honest, I positioned the pointy end in the direction that was least likely to do me a mischief when walking past and bending over near other tools in the workshop!

It's all just what you are used to and then what you are trying to make at the time, surely?

[Larry H]

someone seems to have the word "tradition" stuck in their craw and couldn't read on, I said you must "know your way around the anvil " which means use all sides,...even the heel, sides and feet. the "tradition" ?..I've been a full time smith for thirty five years,....two of my mentors,...one a sixth generation smith,.the other couldn't say because all the way back in the family's history they were european blacksmiths ,....both said to the right,...does a few hundred years make a tradition? He really didn't know if his great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather had it to the left ,.....however if he was left handed he probably did.

[John McPherson]

Sorry, nothing to say about this, really.

Just checking in to see the greasy spot where the dead horse was, way back when this started. Again.

[ThomasPowers]

So if I drove a Ford truck and my great grandfather drove a Ford truck; should I expect my great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather to have driven a Ford truck? Or should I acknowledge that Ford trucks weren't in use back then? Anvil styles do change over time and WRT location.

His great^7 grandfather most likely didn't have a "proto" London Pattern anvil and so the question is moot for him. Ascribing a possible orientation is *wrong* for this anvil as it would have most likely been a double horned one, or perhaps a no horn one if he was a specialized smith. If he was in Europe almost certainly a double horned anvil. This is true even if his smithing ancestry goes all the way back to Tubal Cain.

One of the issues with "tradition" is that we often tend to think that what was done 100 years ago was done 1000 years ago---note the paintings of George Washington at an anvil that use the wrong anvil for his time period. (or even worse in a medieval group a fellow had a bunch of T shirts made up with "Anvil of Virtue" on it with an anvil style centuries later than the time period he was referring to, sigh. OTOH it was common in medieval paintings to put historical figures in the clothing and armour of the current time period when depicting them...And if anyone is interested in this topic "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" has several medieval smithing pictures in it)

In blacksmithing the term "Tradition" is often used to try to set something "above" something else. This comes in with the Arts and Crafts movement of the early 1900's when they tried to set "traditional" crafts as being better than "modern" machine based crafts---this starts being a problem when we research back and find out that the first powerhammer dates to before the year 1000, (personal communication at the Medieval Technology Conference, Penn State University); so if you are smithing in a "style before the use of powerhammers" you should also be using charcoal as a fuel in a side blast forge with twin single action bellows (the double lunged bellows comes into smithing from the goldsmiths in the 1400's IIRC) and real wrought iron (Bessemer Process making mild steel dates to the 1850's---so a MAJOR change in smithing occurs mid 19th century!)

I'll check Moxon's "Mechanic Exercises", 1703, and see if he gives an orientation in his description or depiction of setting up a smithy. Anyone have access to the complete Diderot's encyclopedia to see if any single horned anvils are depicted in the late 18th century in France? I can dig though "Practical Blacksmithing", 1889, 1890, 1891; and see if it's mentioned there. (I know that it's not mentioned in "Divers Arts" from 1120 AD or in "De Re Metallica" or "Pirotechnia" in the late renaissance.) I don't recall any single horned anvils in the "Venus at the forge of Vulcan" paintings or "the Forgers" by Goya. Anybody know of other sources to check?

It very well might be a "tradition" but not an all encompassing one!

John, I think you're right about this topic.

[Old N Rusty]

The magic circle your feet leave in the dust of the forge, idealy should be round, and as small as you can comfortably work in. From forge to anvil, to power hammer, to vise, to forge. as few steps as necessary. I have two "smallish" london pattern anvils,as i face the forge the one on my left with horn facing forge has a hardy in it most of the time, off to my left and out of the way as far as the danger of hitting it with hand accidentally. So that one is placed so the very sharp horn is out of the way of my thighs and private parts while dancing around in the excited way i get sometimes. The anvil on my right usually has a scroll jig in the hardy hole, or a scroll starter, and is placed so the horn is to my left as i am right handed and that seemed to me the "right" way to set it. So it is really a matter of preferrence, and not some "RULE". The flat side goes up, sometimes. Oh and my third anvil, is a larger london pattern, set on a moveable base so it points anywhere i want it. This anvil is set about an inch lower than the others as it is used for a striker anvil. I say do whats right for you.

[ThomasPowers]

OK I scanned some of my historical smithing references over Breakfast today:

Moxon, "Mechanick Exercises" published 1703 substantially written in the last half of the 17th century (1650-1700):

"Of the Anvil"
The shape of a Black Smith's anvil I have inserted in this Figure, though it is sometimes made with a Pike or Bickern or Beak-iron at one end of it"

He goes on to describe the face in detail and how it is mounted on a "wooden block, that it may stand very steady and solid, and about 2 foot high from the floor or sometimes higher, according to the stature of the Person that is to work at it."

In the figure the anvil is shown with a tiny beak to the left when approached from the forge. (but the figure may not be a real depiction as he is trying to show all the equipment in one go)



Richardson, "Practical Blacksmithing", 1889, 1890, 1891:

Vol 1, page 64 Plan of shop contributed by D.F.H: anvil horn to the right
Vol 1, page 66 Smith shop in a New York Carriage Factory: horn pointing at the forge
Vol 1, page 73 Plan of J.E.M's blacksmith shop: horn to the left


Bealer, "The Art of Blacksmithing" , 1969

Pg 71 "Generally the smith places the anvil with it's horn at his left and it's heel at his right"

So 120 years ago there seems to be no "standard" direction and 300 years ago a horn was a "sometimes" thing. In modern times we start seeing a "generally to the left"

I'll check more references tonight.


(I'm wondering if this came in with the advent of motion study in the 20's and 30's?)

Thomas

[Timothy Miller]

I work with my horn to the left and for no real good reason to tell you the truth. I'm just used to it because that is how I was taught and I'm not really interested in changing my technique at this point in the game. But I have to say this most anvils have the logo and weight on the side that would be facing out when the horn was to the left. This is fairly standard on almost all makes. I'm sure that they wanted their logos to be seen so they put them on what they considered to be the most viewed side. But really its your anvil use it how you feel you need to just not as a torch cutting stand.

[ThomasPowers]

Hit up some early 1900's smithing books in reprint from Lindsay Books; they are mostly mentioning "to the left" except for the ones that say "depending on the handedness of the smith". My 1939 german book on smithing has double horned anvils and does not even mention this. (fleamarket find in Frankfurt!) I'll have to look at the pre WWI book on German iron work too.

Next on the list are the "Farm Shop" manuals.


Anybody want to do a quick scan of the "modern" smithing texts?

Anybody have the Blacksmith Calendars and check the pictures (making sure that the negatives haven't been printed in reverse of course a not uncommon thing.)

So far this "tradition" seems to be mainly a post 1900 one. Which does have a solid 100 years on it now.

[Mike C]

I am right handed with a left pointing horn. From a farrier point of view, wiht the tongs and horseshoe in the left hand and hammer in the right, it is more comfortable to turn the shoe branches around the horn at an angle to get a rounder circumfrence on the shape as well as the hammer hand over the face of the anvil. I couldn't imagine trying to turn the shoe branches of a handmade with the horn pointing right, I'd have to move my entire body, side stepping to get ther with the hammer swing not matching the natural movement. I would think the handedness of the smith would determine the direction of the horn. There are also times when I need the lenght of the anvil with the horn pointing away but generally I have little need to move much. It's interesting to see what is comfortable with one is not with the other. I've never seen a farrier use anything other than right handed-left horn, left handed-right horn. Perhaps it's unique to making or shaping horseshoes.

[twcoffey]

I am a righty and I like the horn to the right for two reasons. 1. Don't have to worry about hitting my knuckles on something in the hardy hole like others have said here.
2. When working something on the horn it is more convienent to hold the piece in the left hand and work around the horn with the right held hammer.

It makes sense to have he horn to the left if you are left handed for the same reasons.

[ThomasPowers]

Good data point Mike; this may be a farrier-centric "tradition" as many small town smiths in America were also farriers.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

http://www.blacksmithing.org/CB-Archive/2001/2001-05-cb.pdf

There is the article I spoke of in my post. The jist of it is that ornimental smiths would normaly position the horn to the right and that mechanical smiths would postition the heal to the right. In the article George Dixon was speaking to an older gentleman at Yellins shop, relating the information about the horns relationship to your strong arm. Personally I walk all around my anvil to find the best spot for me to work. Also being somewhat abidexterous I usually don't have a problem using either had when I hammer.

Right now my big issue in the shop is I can't stand for long because of a bad knee I can't straighten. It's locked and hurts like the dickens sometimes.

[Bob S]

1. Don't have to worry about hitting my knuckles on something in the hardy hole like others have said here.

This has come up before (and will again) on this thread and others. I have a hard time imagining what a smiths hand would be doing over the hardy. When I am forging my hand is on the same side of the anvil I am. As I work from one spot to another I move the workpiece. Not my hand. I do remove the hardy after using but not because I'm worried about amputating a finger.

Bob