you got to love people like this

[FieryFurnace]

Ok, so I finished up the work for my last client. (Fireplace set, pot rack, and misc small hardware.)
Great person to deal with and everything went smoothly! (Very nice when you are in the learning stages.)

The pot rack hung on a gable ceiling so two hooks had to be longer and two hooks shorter to hand the pot rack even. My client handed the phone off to her carpenter so he could get me the measurements for the hooks. He gave me the measurements and I made the hooks with about 8 inches of chain so he could adjust as needed.

Well, I get a call a couple weeks ago; "the hooks are too long because my carpenter messed up the measurements."
I should have charged but I didn't! Anyway, my client shipped the hooks and chain back to me, I made new hooks to the correct lengths, and sent them back eating the time and return shipping.


Yesterday, I get an email from my client's carpenter. He wants some iron work. Sixteen angle iron accents for shelving corners. The material is 2-inch angle iron cut in two inch lengths, heated to scale, chamfered edges, rounded corners, and two holes for mounting!
He signed his email "master craftsmen, 34 years and counting."
Now I don't get riled aout much, but if I have any pet-pieves, a cocky attitude is at the top of the list.

I quoted him $5.00 per accent totaling $80. For the consumables to make those, I think that is a fine price, maybe a little low.

Then some square-head lags from Blacksmith's depot. They are $.25 from the depot so I quoted him $.35 to cover shipping.

Well, he emailed back and said, "Thanks, but no thanks, At $5.00 a bracket it's a bit pricey."
Hehehe! Dad said I should email back and say "well I tried free but....."

I mean this guy lives in Kentucky and was doing some construction for my client in North Carolina. I'm sure he doesn't charge anything like the exorbitant price of $20 an hour!

Master craftsmen.....maybe he should practice reading tape measures too! LOL

Ok so I just thought it was sort of funny! So look guys, I've been trying to tell y'all, "I am overcharging!" JK Yep! First time I've ever had that laid to my charge!

Thoughts???

[David Einhorn]

Dave, don't take it personally the "master" carpenter is not worth spending mental energy on. In case he calls you back under the assumption that his reaction will get him a better price, simply double or triple your estimate. Just tell him, "you're right, the correct estimate for your brackets are $15 each. ;-) Always put either an expiration date on an estimate or put a statement that prices are vulnerable to change as the cost of materials change.

[Glenn]

You set your prices based on your shop. Some will think they are too low, some will thing they are reasonable, some will think they are too high. Then there are those that, if you give them the items for free, THEY want paid for taking the item off your hands. Learn to choose clients from the first two groups. Every extimate or offer should have a expiration date and a clause stating that if your costs increase, so does the estimate.

There is a members signature on the forum If anyone questions your standards, they are not high enough. Consider it as a guide line.

[pkrankow]

I think you set a fair price, and that is that. You even state that the price may be low for labor.

I think you need to let the "Master craftsman" bit go. Errors happen, and it was big of you to correct the error. I saw your video making hooks, there was more time in setup and clean up than anything else.

Phil

Edit: David has a good point, Quotes have an expiration, and your paperwork should reflect that.
Phil

[fciron]

When I hear someone accused of overcharging, my reaction, as a full time smith, is "CONGRATULATIONS!"

Now mark those fasteners up 100%. It's still cheaper than making your own.

[AK Arkie]

True craftsmen are far more rare than we want to believe. The clown carpenter that you had to deal with is unfortunately the norm. You will not recommend him, he should not try to hire you again, all is as it should be. I second the motion on time limits on quotes. The most important thing that I learned from having a bakery is that you must price each item based on your costs. When I do blacksmithing for hire I often charge a batch fee to cover start-up time, this allows me to charge less per piece once I am involved in production work. Then there are the pieces that I do once because it is fun but to do as production I would charge much more because it can be hard work with no fun involved. It all depends on the customer and the time I have to offer.

Keep up the good work!
Scott

[Jymm Hoffman]

If someone looks at something a show that has a price clearly marked, then asks me "what's your best price?" I normally double it and watch for the reaction. After they react, I sometimes say "you asked me what MY best price is."

[dablacksmith]

welcome to the world of the modern blacksmith ... he figured your time is worth nuthin .. its a typical thing i get once in a wile from people who couldnt do the work on theyre own ... i was asked one time how long it took to make a item and i told them ... then they asked how much ... and then commented that " thats a pretty good wage " i explaned that no it really isnt then explaned that that was retail and you base forge time on whsl. then i went on to explain that if i hired someone to do the job he would only make 10$ an hr by the time i paid everything (taxes l&i ect)and most machine shops or welding shops charge more than my rate ! people dont have a clue about what we do and how long it takes to learn it... dont worry about this guy he was just figureing he could sumthin for nuthin ..

[Smokin' Coke Forge]

Dave, Iv'e seen a lot of the work that you have posted on this site, and the overall impression always seems to be that you could be charging MORE for the quality of work that you are producing. You've also demonstrated that you have tried to be more than fair in your dealings with your customers, and in this case, went way beyond what could reasonably be expected. If this carpenter could have gotten the same type and quality of work from somewhere else at a cheaper price, you can bet that he would have. I'd be willing to gamble that he won't find a better price or product elsewhere. Don't be surprised if he reconsiders your original quote. If you're not concerned with losing his business again, that's when you take the opportunity to raise your price to meet the new market demand. You have the hammer, forge, talent and product. The customer needs to be willing to pay a fair price. If not, you don't need the headache. Keep up the good work!

[CurlyGeorge]

Dave, you need some sign like I have in my shop.

[used-iron]

Your rates are what you feel you need to make a living and a PROFIT. Otherwise its a hobby and your day job is subsidizing your shop. From here you are not charging enough. As far as the master carpenter goes that title is self bestowed,probably in the bath room at the local big box store where his third world tape was purchased. Don't waste a moment of time thinking about it just raise your prices and keep on working.That seems to chase away the bottom feeders and bring in a better class of customer. Lee from NYS land of taxes

[Pat Roy]

A parallel:

My significant other is an artist, she paints murals(or would like to). People want a mural but cry if she wants to make $15 an hour. The same people don't flinch to pay a guy $30 an hour to spread off white paint on the walls of a room.

I have a customer(maybe) who wants 25 hand made cabinet pulls but claims her budget for that is $100; $4 each, go to WalMart.

[jw223]

Dave- I know that sometimes it is disapointing to lose work, but I think you walked away clean. When I find myself in the position where someone is trying to beat me up on price, I just start subtracting things. Get rid of the square head bolts. The master carpenter probably has a few extra 16 penny nails he could use. Next, offer to only make half the number of brackets, and he can either quote HIS customer a smaller project, or install something with incorrect supports. I doubt he was going to tell his customer "I got such a great price on the brackets, that I'm going to lower my price!"

I do HVAC professionally, so I work on the lighter side of metal, as compared to most people on this site. A lot of times, I feel like telling someone- why don't you go out and spend 60k on tools, spend 20 years of you life learning to use them, go to countless hours of continuing education classes, and then call me and let me know if you can do the work cheaper! Most people don't realize what goes into custom making objects. They compare pricing to the big box stores, and since you probably don't have an army of people working for you earning .02 cents a week, it is difficult to compete on pricing. Good luck on the next one. A while ago, an old timer told me that 20% of your work eats up 80% of your profits. Basically he was saying sometimes, you make more by walking away.

[FieryFurnace]

Ohh don't worry folks! I don't get bothered by people like this, just humoured is all!

As far as loosing the work, I don't care to work for someone like that anyway, so I don't mind! LOL

I did think of a great response email though!

Just tell him that, as the blacksmith is the one that makes the carpenter's tools, I'm the master craftsmen, he's just the craftsmen! LOL That would ride over really well! Ok ok So I'm not going to actually do that!

As far as labour costs this is what I figured.

Angle iron is hard on band saw blades so I figured 16 cuts in angle would be 1/4 of a blade's life. That is nearly $5.00! I would probably use half the life of two drill bits (tap and finish) drilling the 32 holes. That's another $5.00. I would have $3.00 in clear coat.

All said and done I'd say an hour and a half to two hours start to finish. Figure in gas to the steel yard and the actual steel cost, I'm probably clearing $70.00.

Thanks for the support and ifo. My parents taught me better than to mouth off to people, so I get to come here and let y'all tell me the guy is crazy! LOL

[Bad Creek Blacksmith]

You can always tell them you have the experience, your just trying to make a living now.

[Timothy Miller]

You need to charge what you need to charge forget your ego and the and how you feel about the "Master" it all really boils down to money in the end. It is moral to get paid a fair rate for a days work. There should be no guilt and no second guessing your self on that. If you can figure out how to do it for less do it. But if you going to loose money you're better off going fishing or if you need practice make your self some tools.

[Ulric]

I'm afraid I'd be tempted to point out to the 'master craftsman' that his customer probably could have gone to the home despot and bought their shelves & brackets etc cheaper than he was charging for the 'work' he was doing.... and as a smith, your not telling or suggesting to him what he should charge his customers.

[ThomasPowers]

"So as a *master* craftsman you're going to cover the cost of remaking those hooks that you gave me the *WRONG* measurements for, right?"

I've been surprised by the number of people who think you should be slavering at the bit to get their lousy job at a price where you loose money doing it to a standard of craftsmanship *you* can live with. Now the folks who want good work and are willing to pay for it and accept decent delivery times *THEY* are worth coddling!

[son_of_bluegrass]

Somewhere I run across the following

The difference between someone with tools and a craftsman is the craftsman pays attention to details. The difference between a craftsman and a master craftsman is the master craftsman knows what to do with his mistakes.

As such if he has been in business for 34 years, he knows what to do with mistakes. If he didn't he wouldn't be making money.

ron

[pkrankow]

Just because he calls himself a "master craftsman" doesn't mean he can't have a personality problem.

Taking the high road is not being a pushover, while doing what is right.

Phil

[ZIG]

I understand the poke at his email address. Then he decides he doesn't want Your price. That's cool. When people see the ladies pot rack. They might ask who did it and refer to the carpenter.
But she'd end up telling them he got a blacksmith to make that. That shows off your skill and his inability to do that kinda work.
Point being. He's just a contractor that makes more money the lower prices He gets off you. But in the long run. You'll get some advertising from the other work. And possibly a shout out for not charging extra for his mistakes. That shows character and that's What gives you a good name in the business. Not who measured What wrong or whatever.
If you are wanting to have more business. The more product you have in peoples homes the better off you'll be. His work is over. Probably at some point. But with the things you can produce. They are what I call talking points. At parties or family get togethers. Things people can't find at Lowes or wherever. You will get business from anything you can get in a home. Women Like to look at stuff And talk. Duh.
You have just learned a major part of business. Had you been dealing with the customer directly She might have jumped on that price. He could've been trying to make up a few bucks from a mistake he had to eat in the job. So what the customer gets is sometime just what the carpenter tells them about. But your work will stand for itself.
I know you were just joking around about the situation. But you'll get a return on the way you handled the other issue. I believe in that stuff. May be a while somewhere else. But it all comes back around. Character, That's what's its all about.