KYBOY Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Ive noticed lately there has been a lot of discussion about anvil,block and blacksmithing tool prices in general..I thought I might offer an observation and opinion in general..Tell us what you think about it.. Well Im a scrounger myself..I hate to pay a lot for anything if I dont have too, but I will if I want it bad enough..I figure I can either buy it and have it or not buy it and complain about the price and not have it..I have combed the eastern half of Kentucky over the years..I have come up with three anvils worth buying and a few hand tools..No swage blocks, no cones..I come across a vise every now and again. Maybe one a year I have a nice 4" columbian so Im holding out for a 5" or 6" vise..Just to give you an idea of how rare smithing items are around here..If you want it, you'll have to pay for it.. Collecting has really come on strong the last decade or so..Collectors are willing to pay more than a smith is most of the time. Thats just the way it is..Smiths in general are a stingy lot. Smiths are also use to paying out of date prices for old tools no one uses anymore. Since the collectors market has come on strong there are folks out there willing to pay good money for this stuff. Then there are a new generation of smiths out there coming in that will pay it too.. The collectors market isnt going away and last I checked not many manufacturers are making Anvils, swage blocks,hand cranked blowers and floor cones any more.. So folks Id say if you want it, you'd just as well pay it and have it because no ammount of us griping is gonna change anything..These prices increases arnt goig away and I dont think smithing tools are going to get any cheaper..I dont like paying high prices anymore than the rest of you but Ive come to the conclusion that Id hate to go thru life wanting because Im too cheap to spend that extra few bucks for something I want.. A few extra bucks, Im talking about spending $1000 bucks for a 5" post vise :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Im with you there... One thing that most folks fail to take into account is there is the price, and then there is THE price.... If you happen on to a real nice 7" post vise at a yard sale for $40 that does not make it worth $40.. It makes it a great deal and you should snap it up and count your self lucky... If you want to know the real value of that 7" vise... clean it up real nice take some good pictures and put the sucker on eBay... It is likely to bring $250+... that's its value... I am amazed at how many people think eBay is "crazy" or that people bidding on these things must be out of there mind... Nope its simple economics and eBay does not always make the prices of things go up... eBay puts sellers and buyers together... Old cast iron banks used to be very collectible and fetch a good price... eBay destroyed the market for them... before eBay it seemed like they where rare and people paid good money for them... once eBay come on line there where way more banks than people to buy them and the prices dropped... lots... some banks that pre ebay sold for $100-$300 can now be bought for $20 Same thing happens to old toys... turns out there are way more of them out there than buyers for them... the price dropped big time.... What eBay does is gets top dollar for things that are truly rare or desirable and gets reasonable prices for more common things... I just dont get how some people thing they somehow are the authority and can say "its not worth that" well, it sold for that didnt it? then to that person its worth it and thus that sets the price... You can say "I wouldnt pay that" all you want and that I can get behind... That anvil that just sold... I wouldn't have paid $5600 for it.. no way no how... But that doesn't make it not worth it.. Just means I wouldnt pay it Do you know how many people have made big money paying top dollar for "good" times and later selling for much much more than what they paid? I paid $500 for a post vise... Seems like a lot for a post vise... However I also turned down $1250 for it.. so do you think I paid to much at $500? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 So, did you keep the guy's phone number Larry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfshieldrx Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 My way of looking at price vs value. "Price" is how much the seller wants for an item and "value" is what I am willing to pay for it. For example, a seller may want $100.00 for a vise whether you buy it or I buy it. That's its price. I may be willing to pay $100.00 while you will only pay $50.00. That's its value. Maybe oversimplified but I'm pretty simple ;-) bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 whether you buy it or not value has nothing to do with price.... If I sold you a $100 bill for $20 is it worth $20 or $100? if you put a $100 bill on eBay it wont bring $300 just because you think it is rare because its the only one you have ever seen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Just a quick story. I bought an all original`58 Harley for $1200 when I lived in Texas.It ran but needed a top end rebuild. For 3 years this guy from California kept coming thru about every four months and buying old bikes from me(at what I thought was a pretty good profit) and every time he bought a bike he tried to talk me out of that `58. Came time to leave Texas after the bottom fell of of the oilfield and I sold it to Dave for $3500 with the condition he be honest about what it sold for when he got back to the coast.He loaded it on the back of his truck and trailer along with about a dozen + old bikes he had bought at different places between the coast and me that time around. He called me a couple of days before we left and told me he had it sold for $10,000 before he even pulled into his driveway. The only difference between Dave and the guys on fleabay is he was into bikes and saw the opportunities long before the internet came along. I understand Dave has quite a nice personal collection of old bikes that he may sell off one day.If not whoever is named in the will is one lucky individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I must admit I am still amazed at American prices. but if we are to look at the value of these tools then I think the value of an anvil that will give a lifetimes service should not be underestimated . one does not complain about the cost of vintage cars, the difference with anvils and other industrial age tools is that we can use them and own them and appreciate their beauty and build quality and aesthetics and heritage . and did I mention use them......a few grand for a tool you use every day your whole working life............... An anvil is still just a lump of steel and in the we are lucky that an anvil normally costs less than its value in new steel , When this changes I will still want an old anvil and would happily pay the price. the good news is that as prices rise on old tools less of them will be melted down ...................lets face it wouldn't it be great to be sitting on a gold mine of valuable tools when we retire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Sometimes, a windfall. Sometimes, you pay through the nose. Early on in my career, a man presented me with a complete set of unused Atha tongs, gratis. In the early 1970's, I paid $200 for a large floor mandrel. At the time, I thought the price was outrageous, but I knew that the mandrels were hard to find. Now, I'm glad I have it. About five years ago, I discovered a 250 pound Trenton anvil in a junk yard, and I got it for $250. Fifteen years ago, I paid $700 for a 227 pound Hey-Bud; it was in beeyootiful shape. Maybe it'll all average out some day. Maybe it has, already. A horseshoer friend from Colorado, drove by a farmstead where the two driveway pillars were cone mandrels. At the top of each, a chain was tack welded and drooped down to attach to a wooden fence. My buddy stopped, met the owners, and made a successful deal to forge two decorative posts to replace the mandrels, no cash money involved. Presently, the Saltfork Craftsmen of Oklahama are fund raising by selling new, ductile iron mandrels and swage blocks. The mandrels have a 10"D base and are 36" tall. The swage blocks have depressions: circular, spoon, and shovel. The prices are $200 and $100 respectively, plus shipping. To me, those prices are fair. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Some of you may know that I spent 20+ years in the real estate brokerage/appraisal business. This may be a stretch, but here is how I see the tool market from my unique perspective. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong; I'm married, and used to it. Anything has at least three identifiable values: present market value, reproduction cost, and replacement cost. Let's take post vises and anvils, since they seem to get talked about the most.Present market value is the best price you, the educated seller, can get for it from educated buyers after offering it for sale for a reasonable time. Offering may take the form of an ad, or an auction, or a sign in the yard. The more folks that see your offering, the better the chance that someone just has to have it. Notice this has nothing to do with distress sales, limited market exposure, or lazy-uncaring-unknowing sellers or other buyers, that is where the bargains come from. Big farm, estate, & Ebay auctions set the top of the market. There is nothing that stops you from reselling that $50 dollar deal you got on Craigslist for $250 on Ebay, except its value in use to you. Case in point: I bought a vise at a tractor show maybe 10 years ago, before the guy had even unloaded it from the trailer. Paid the asking price and made the guy sign a receipt with the handshake, and had the guy hold it for me 'til the end of the day. This was much to the amusement of the other blacksmiths with me, who assured me there would be tons at half of what I just got ripped off for. We saw a few more complete and partial vises for sale that, but none as cheap. There were several dozen anvils, some almost pristine. The asking prices on everything had gone way up since the year before. He was mad as a wet hen when I picked it up, because he got 10 more offers on it, and I got stopped 3 times on the way out with it on my shoulder by folks wanting to buy it. The other sellers and I knew what they were going for on Ebay and at antique stores, the other blacksmiths and my seller did not. Know your market. This year there were 3 complete, shiny vises, none less than $100. Anvils were scarce, and crappy too.Reproduction cost is what it would cost to make another one just like it. Darn few of us would have the skills and machinery to make a 300 pound wrought iron anvil with a forge-welded tool steel face, and could not afford to sell them for $2/lb if we did. Grant could probably give us a SWAG on what that would entail. Making a simple 4" post vise with a power hammer or refacing an old anvil has been done as a conference demo, or labor of love, but not as a business. New anvils and post vises are made today, and if you think that vintage stuff is overpriced, check out what the new US and European stuff is going for. I don't count ASO's in this area.Replacement cost is what it would take to get something with the same utility in use, not it's identical twin. This is where the fixer-upper and home-made vise and anvils projects come from. Do they have the same utility? Yes. Do they look the same? Hardly ever. Collector value? Nil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 the price of something can vary quite a bit even on ebay ive bought a anvil (on ebay)for less than a dollar a pound and it is a useable anvil ! the pictures of it made it look rotten but i noticed the face looked fine turns out the problems were all cosmetic...if i was a collector i would not have bought it but for use it is nice! ive seen prices all over the map and craigs list can be worse than ebay! i have seen things on craigs list for over a year ant a price that it will never sell for ... but cause the listing is free it stays on and gets renewed (hope springs eternal) if you are patient most of what your looking for will come your way ...keep looking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I cant see how someone is willing to pay 20,000 to 30,000 dollars for a pickup truck that probally wont last 10 years and complain about paying a couple hundred to a few thousand for an anvil that probally has already lasted longer that 10 pickups and will last longer than 10 more. It may just all boil down to how ones priorities are aligned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryforge Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I have been metalworking for almost 15 years. During this time I have purchased anvils, post vices, built forges both gas and coal anything that is required to do the job. As the projects get larger I have to replace the equipment, thats gets expensive, 3000 dollars for an anvil. Almost all the time the customers come out to the shop I have to look professional whether I am or not. Equipment costs, it is what is expected in this business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don't tread on me Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Ive noticed lately there has been a lot of discussion about anvil,block and blacksmithing tool prices in general..I thought I might offer an observation and opinion in general..Tell us what you think about it.. Well Im a scrounger myself..I hate to pay a lot for anything if I dont have too, but I will if I want it bad enough..I figure I can either buy it and have it or not buy it and complain about the price and not have it..I have combed the eastern half of Kentucky over the years..I have come up with three anvils worth buying and a few hand tools..No swage blocks, no cones..I come across a vise every now and again. Maybe one a year I have a nice 4" columbian so Im holding out for a 5" or 6" vise..Just to give you an idea of how rare smithing items are around here..If you want it, you'll have to pay for it.. Collecting has really come on strong the last decade or so..Collectors are willing to pay more than a smith is most of the time. Thats just the way it is..Smiths in general are a stingy lot. Smiths are also use to paying out of date prices for old tools no one uses anymore. Since the collectors market has come on strong there are folks out there willing to pay good money for this stuff. Then there are a new generation of smiths out there coming in that will pay it too.. The collectors market isnt going away and last I checked not many manufacturers are making Anvils, swage blocks,hand cranked blowers and floor cones any more.. So folks Id say if you want it, you'd just as well pay it and have it because no ammount of us griping is gonna change anything..These prices increases arnt goig away and I dont think smithing tools are going to get any cheaper..I dont like paying high prices anymore than the rest of you but Ive come to the conclusion that Id hate to go thru life wanting because Im too cheap to spend that extra few bucks for something I want.. A few extra bucks, Im talking about spending $1000 bucks for a 5" post vise You should move up hare I know a guy who has a antque shop and has 2 250lb 6in post vices in perfect condishon for $350. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Well there is the "collectors market" and the "users market". I have no issue with someone going crazy over a small rare anvil on ebay. What I do object to is that every other anvil dealer suddenly gets the idea that their "run of the mill using anvil" is worth the same or even greater amount! If the buyers are not aware of the market as a whole then they can get suckered into paying collector's prices for a using anvil and the cycle just get perpetrated. E-Bay can be very bad in that a lot of the people have no idea of the local market; they just see the prices on e-bay that by it's nature tends towards reflecting the market in places where it's hard to find anvils. (and then adds on shipping that raises it even further!) As for worth" is it any more valid to say that someone paid $5 a pound for an anvil so that's what it's worth than to say I paid under $1 a pound so that's what it's worth? Why is my price under paying and the other price not considered overpaying? I currently live in an anvil poor area; but moving in from an anvil rich area I was "anviled up" and so have not been hunting. Even so I have "found" 3 anvil the last 6 years, two for free and one for US$1.34 per pound. I don't know what I would have done if I had been in anvil finding mode... and yes one of those "free" anvils I found just sitting in the desert, it called to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xsable Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I've just started building up my shop myself and was a bit overwhelmed by some of the prices out there, but when I looked further I realized, as with most things, a little patience and research can get you some good deals regardless of what you are buying. The internet is a useful tool but it isn't the end all to where to buy and sell stuff. Ask around, people you know, people you work with friends of friends. I've come across a lot of people with advice on where to find blacksmithing stuff at an affordable price and it has panned out so far. Antique shops are a great place to get a deal, not because they are known for bargains but because no antique dealer in their right mind wants to keep old dirty tools in their stores for long, they are heavy and take up a lot of room so they want them out as soon as they can get a buyer. I'm still eyeing out a deal on a fire pot though.. I'm sure I'll dig one up for a deal soon, this site itself is a great resource! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryforge Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hey I started out with Kingsford charcoal and a hair dryer, I had no idea what I was doing, maybe still don't. But up here in Canada things are few and far. Just have to look in all the little places. Every thing is there just waiting to be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 First rule of economics. Its only worth what someone is willing to pay for it no matter what the ook or anyone else says. Very rarely will I pay more than $5.00 for a hammer any more. I hit junk shops and flea markets hard and can make my own handles if need be. Every good smith has a scrap pile. Ask your smithing friends if you can browse thru theirs. I also pick up a lot of items I no longer need if the price is right, mainly because some beginning smith will need or want the item and I can usualy work out some kind of trade. I've traded a post vise for a summer of getting my grass cut. Next time you see a 250lb anvil that sells for $2.00 a lb and you want only only a 100lb anvil, ask the dealer if he'll cut you off 150 lbs. See top sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 You got it Willis.. I know not everthing sells for top dollar, that there are lots of deals to be had.... I dont pay top dollar for things unless I really am in a pinch and its an item that will make me money... I buy deals... sometimes even if I dont need them (most of the time I dont need them) But if the price is right I'll buy. Ive made a lot of money buying things I didnt need because the price was right My issue is not that everything is expensive, or that there is one right price for a item.. Nothing like that.. What irritates me is the people who say "No anvil is worth more than $2/lb.. Or anyone who pays more than $3/lb is an idiot " That is just ignorance... If you bought a 63 Corvette from a little ol lady whos son used to own it but died for $1500 are you going to tell me that any 63 vett must only be worth $1500 then? That someone who would pay $10,000 for one was crazy? Some 63 Corvetts could be worth $150,000 and some might be worth $1500.... Who do you think you are that you can say "No car is worth that much" after someone just paid that for it and left with a smile? I just dont get it... Its simple economics... As for the guys who see an anvil sell for $5000 and then think there crappy little busted cast anvil must be worth the same... Well they can price it what ever they want, doesnt mean anyone with any sense would buy it... The market takes care of those guys... After trying for a while and a few people laughing at him He is likely to understand its value a bit better.. Best to just walk away from those guys who "Know what its WorTH!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZIG Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Maybe Had the higher prices not come along. Most stuff would be long gone. These tools will survive now. Because of all the internet, TV picker programs and pawn shop, storage locker shows. My point is. ,that everyone with a TV nowadays. Is thinking They know something about antique anything. That just because its old means its valuable. My great - great grandaddys tongs are worth the world to me. But the average Smith wouldn't give me nothing For them. So I have noticed that it might be a little harder to find things or buy them cheaply. But either They are retained in families as heirlooms or for profit later, they still exist. Like mandrel cones. How many have been lost to scrapyards. Now people wouldn't think about getting rid of nothing like that. Without a quick Google search. So. Although. For the working Smith. It may cost a little more To get certain things now. But just think about what has been saved. Simply due to eBay and TV. .at least Its still around. Maybe untouchable at today's prices. But should be around for the next generation. I'll buy what I have to. And pass on somethings I should buy. But if I gotta pay alot to get something that is so hard. To come buy. Then I consider it a investment for my kids. But I'm gonna get my use outta it. And somethings I Got are just to have. Like old coal forges. I get enjoyment just having them. To show friends about this craft. What's a few hundred dollars for a lifetime of memories. Just knowing I have certain Smith equipment makes me feel good. Like I saved it from the scrap pile. I was lucky to be the fifth generation Smith in my family. But collect certain pieces. Cause I don't have everything that was in the family. Long way of saying. If you want it and can get it. Just do it. Your about guaranteed ,the bottom want fall out. You Might pay to much. But if you wanna sell it. You'll get most back. Like you leased It And put it back in the rotation for future smiths. Someone had gotta keep these items around. So I can't think of a better place than my shop. So I can enjoy them while I'm here. Life is short. Don't deny yourself the enjoyment thinking you'll find another later. ,cheaper. Sorry I'm rambling. I Just feel better to preserve the craft all I can. I Don't buy just anything. But considered it money well spent. Within reason. Up to late for such a long post. Sorry if I got off track. I'm Just happy you can still see somethings. Even.if you can't afford them. But I like the post about setting on a gold mine of tools one day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 if you are truly looking for smithing equipment do demos! if you put a sign up as part of your demo "looking for blacksmithing tools" you will get a few people bring stuff in ..ive picked stuff up and at reasonable prices cause i was useing it not puttin it in some barn ..i (like larry) buy stuff i dont need if the price is right and pass it on...still looking for stuff and probably always will i think its a part of blacksmithing! am i likeley to find another trip hammer for 300$ (what i paid for my first 50 lb little giant)not likeley but .... are there good deals out there still Absoluteley ! haveing said that all this stuff is cheaper than new made or we would all be useing new stuff!ck the price on a new post vice sometime ! yes its not as common to get things for scrap price anymore thats not nessarily bad tho ... my tools are worth sumthin now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 When people want way more than something's worth because it's "old" I sometimes will pick up a rock and tell them that the rock is a million times older, but I'll trade them even! (hey got to use the Geology BS sometime!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYBOY Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 When people want way more than something's worth because it's "old" I sometimes will pick up a rock and tell them that the rock is a million times older, but I'll trade them even! (hey got to use the Geology BS sometime!) I agree with this wholeheartedly. Our local "fleamarketers"' drive around and buy up every old wrench, hammer, plane,,awl,adze, brace+bit, etc,etc they can find. Then lay them out on the table with "antique" tags and prices to match..Around here Hatchets and Axes are a very hot trade item.. A few have legitimate collectors pieces but most have worn out garbage at collectors prices.. . One of the last post vises I saw was at a local flea market. A 4" vise in pretty bad shape. I asked him what he wanted for it and he wanted a $125.I didnt say anything else.I was looking it over and he said "I bet you dont know what it is do you?" I said "You'd better be careful betting a blacksmith he dosnt know what a overpriced, worn out post vise is. You'll probably loose" Man he had a funny look on his face :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 One of the last post vises I saw was at a local flea market. A 4" vise in pretty bad shape. I asked him what he wanted for it and he wanted a $125.I didnt say anything else.I was looking it over and he said "I be you dont know what it is do you?" I said "You'd better be careful betting a blacksmith he dosnt know what a overpriced, worn out post vise is. You'll probably loose" Man he had a funny look on his face You should have accepted the challenge and slapped down £125 plus, then told him and asked for your change plus the vise, or just to honor the bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYBOY Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 You should have accepted the challenge and slapped down £125 plus, then told him and asked for your change plus the vise, or just to honor the bet. Your right, I thought about that later. I should have :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I'd like to say something about anvils. There are a good number of posts here on the site about "anvils lasting along time" or "that it will out last your grand children". Well that's what I used to think too,until I spent the last forty years as a professional blacksmith and found that you can start to wear out an anvil in your own life time. I bought a new German Peddinghaus anvil in 1973(thats 37 years ago)and have used it exclusively for all this time.Let me emphasize that I mean used NOT ABUSED and it is starting to show signs of wear.The off or far edge has of resent years begun to chip, ever so slightly but chip it has.The once sharp edges on the first 4-5" by the horn are wearing rounded and the nearer side of the face where all the peening of latch and hinge cusps are done is showing signs of a slight hollowing. Now some may think that this would be the sign of a poor quality anvil.I don't think so. It's the sign of a tool that has served and is serving it's intended use.In those 37 years this anvil has been on the receiving end of hammer blows for Tens of thousands of nails,thousands of latches and hinges,and countless different scroll ends.When one thinks of the abrasion of the scale alone against the anvil face it's no wonder some wear is apparent.As far as the chipping goes,the first chip appeared while upsetting a french button on the far side of the anvil.It didn't happen between the hot metal and the edge but to the side of where the work was being down and a small sliver just popped off.What this says to me is that even though nothing but hot metal has been worked on this anvil it will eventually work harden the face under the impact received through the hot metal. All this said ANVILS DON'T LAST FOREVER or even through the life of a full time smith. All these old PW's that we see or any others that are worn didn't necessarily get that way because they'r 100 years old they easily could have gotten that wear in the first forty or fifty years of their lives.Then of course there are those which after a life in the blacksmith shop were truly abused. Nuff said, just wanted to make a point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.