New Style Kinyon Project / Drawing

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Can't you save your drawings as JPGs? PDFs are a pain in the tush.

One thing I don't like about the tubing is that guiding is much more effective on the corners than on the flats. Just like a wrench, it controls twisting more effectively. Square tube has quite rounded corners.

[Mainely,Bob]

Ok,two down one to go.
How about the shackle/linkage question?

BTW-as far as shock absorbing connections/alignment problems;why not just use rubber/urethane bushings like the ones in the ends of most automotive leaf springs? Is a flexible beam really that much of an advantage here?

[ajclay]

I think this design is meant to overcome a few shortcoming in the original design. Putting the cylinder on top makes for a pretty tall machine. Having a spring between the cylinder and the ram reduces the shock on the connection and the need to align things perfectly. Many of the old design failed where the cylinder rod connected to the ram. I would mount the cylinder very near vertical to minimize some of the component forces.

As John N. pointed out, for the same weight, a tubular ram gives much more bearing area and/or length. I think most self-contained hammers have tubular rams.

Yep, that is my take on the new design, it's not as hard on the cylinder. It doesn't have a direct connection to the ram.

I didn't really pay a lot of attention to the cylinder angle in the drawing. I was doing good to get it in there and have it operate. I straightened it up a little and changed the mounting bracket on the bottom too. I attached an .avi movie file showing the operation of the hammer ( I had to "zip" it because the site wouldn't allow an .avi movie file to upload. ) I'm moving it manually in the movie so don't be to critical about the jerky movement.

Also, the air cylinder has more power pushing than pulling because it doesn't have the shaft on the push side. That may let it operate a little faster.

Thanks guys... Aj

kinyon movie.zip

[ajclay]

One thing for sure, you guys are bringing up things I never noticed or thought of about the design. That's one reason I purchased the plans from Paul, because I didn't want to re invent the wheel as someone put it a while back. I want it to work when I'm finished...

The location of the air cylinder shaft on the spring may have very little to do with the speed of operation in my opinion. It would seem the further away it's from the ram the faster it may operate, but there's only a few inches of adjustment in either directions so it may not make much difference. I don't see the spring "whipping" the ram down to the anvil either with respect to everyones opinion.

The over all stroke of the hammer is about 10.5inches. The 24 inch piece of tubing is needed for that much movement and to keep the overall weight of the ram down. The tubing is 4in square 1/2in thick and that will make a nice place to attach the 6in square 1.5in thick plate to the bottom without a bunch of overhang. The stroke length can be adjusted by changing the location of an air switch not drawn, not by moving the air cylinder ram. I don't have that part of the CAD program figured out..... I don't know how to draw hoses...

Thanks everyone.

Aj

[arftist]

I wouldn't be surprised if having the spring is a great thing for this hammer style. The spring most definitely will add whip, the faster the travel, the more whip. If it doesn't whip at high speed, it is vastly oversprung and the spring is then pointless. This extra movement must be acounted for when alloting room for ram travel in the guide system. Limiting the stroke length with an air valve rather than moment arm attachment point needlessly limits power, but be that as it may.

The linkage/geometry and mounting of the spring are certainly open to evolution.

Just so you know Aj, on my hammer, the pitman arm attachment to the leaf spring is adjustable. Most of the rusty type spring helves are set up this way.

[ajclay]

Just for grins, thought I'd add a couple of photos of the anvil. That took a while to weld those pieces together. Glad it was cold yesterday afternoon. After 5 passes it was giving off some heat. It sure doesn't look like anything, but it took a lot of time to make it.. I figure the total weight of the anvil is about 690lbs. It gets welded to a 1.5in thick base plate later. ... Aj

[FieryFurnace]

Hey great thread! Man I wish I had a computer program like that......that is really neat!

Good luck on the build!

[HWHII]

Just for grins, thought I'd add a couple of photos of the anvil. That took a while to weld those pieces together. Glad it was cold yesterday afternoon. After 5 passes it was giving off some heat. It sure doesn't look like anything, but it took a lot of time to make it.. I figure the total weight of the anvil is about 690lbs. It gets welded to a 1.5in thick base plate later. ... Aj

Nice looking welds there Aj. Keep up the quality and you will have a hammer to be envyed for sure.

[ajclay]

Nice looking welds there Aj. Keep up the quality and you will have a hammer to be envyed for sure.

Thanks for the kind words. I've got the base plate cut and tomorrow I'm going to drill some 1 inch mounting holes through it.. I've got the "spine" or main support cut and chamfered ready to weld too. I'll have a few more photos in a day or so. Maybe soon it will start to look like something.

Have a good New Year!!!

Aj

[Dodge]

Hey great thread! Man I wish I had a computer program like that......that is really neat!

Good luck on the build!

Dave, Google's SketchUp is a fun and fairly easy 3d drawing program and the best part is it's FREE!! Just Google it There are also some plug-in tools that (I think he's a member) wrote that draw curves, tapers, and spirals (think scrolls) specifically geared toward metal work. If you want the link to the plug-ins PM me after you get SketchUp installed.

Hope this isn't considered an ad as I'm not selling anything. IT'S FREE!!

Scott

[gearhartironwerks]

Arftest, Yes this is the New Kinyon design. I drew it using the materials I've found over the last couple of weeks. The overall design is like Ron Kinyon drew up. Every one has to figure out how long the pieces should be before they're cut. Some do it in their head, on paper, on the steel table with chalk, I do it on computer. I's just easier for me that way..

The ram is made from 4in square tubing 1/2in thick with a piece of 1.5 in plate welded to the bottom where the dies bolt on. This seems to be a touchy topic about a ram being hollow. I'm by all means no expert, but it seems to me as long as the wieght is there, there shouldn't be a problem. Ron has it layed out using a 24in piece of the tubing. When the ram is complete it'll weigh about 75 lbs. So you think that will really matter??

Thanks for the in put!.. Aj

A 4x4x24" solid weighs about 108lbs. Why use tubing?

JE

[basher]

I think it is a neat looking design.
I particularly like the extended travel given by the spring.
I have a couple of questions though .if the spring is not acting as a spring why not use something stiffer and lighter? most of the old helves use wood . surly a spring is going to slow the whole system down by adding a delayed movement each time.
another thought is that if you extended the helve back a way you would have a lot less lateral movement in its ark at the expense of space.
also looking at the linkage of the spring It would seem to me that having the fixed pivot on the frame would put a lot less strain on the piston. you could run the two part linkage inside the ram a bit like a piston on a crank shaft, this would bring a lot of the lateral forces within the guide as opposed to above it.
some of the designs I have seen with nylon wheels running above and below the spring to allow the spring its lateral movement look good . I do wonder about there longevity though.
I am watching this with interest.
all the best Owen

[macbruce]

Just for grins, thought I'd add a couple of photos of the anvil. That took a while to weld those pieces together. Glad it was cold yesterday afternoon. After 5 passes it was giving off some heat. It sure doesn't look like anything, but it took a lot of time to make it.. I figure the total weight of the anvil is about 690lbs. It gets welded to a 1.5in thick base plate later. ... Aj

I've got anvil envy.......

[peacock]

Bradley helve hammers have a good set up on the helve to ram conection. If you would like to see it go to my profile page and click on gallery.
This design has worked well for 100 years.

[Stormcrow]

Interesting design. I'm no expert, but I am tuning my own home-brewed hammer right now (modified Appalachian style) and I've gotten to work on a couple of different air hammers and a Little Giant. With my Appalachian style hammer, I found that when the springs were too stiff (three almost equal length truck springs shackled together at the ends) they acted more like a solid beam than a spring and wouldn't hit particularly hard. When I replaced the helper springs with shorter ones that were unshackled, the main leaf had a nice whip and hit hard, but would be too whippy when running at high speed. The S-curve developed could not whip out fast enough to keep up with the rotation of the eccentric and the top die actually would not contact the hot steel at all when running flat out. Since I put back the original helper springs cut to 1/3 the main leaf's length and shackled them at their ends, it's hitting right like it needs to.

So spring whip is very important. The way the cylinder is set up where it's attaching near the end of the spring isn't going to let it whip much. What if you set the cylinder vertical and built rollers on the top of the ram to let the end of the spring roll in and out the way the Rusty hammers do? Seems like you'd be getting a lot more use out of your spring.

[Stormcrow]

Woops, somehow missed that there was a whole other page of comments. The video makes it clearer how it would work. I'd really like to see video of the actual hammer running when built.

[Mainely,Bob]

Don`t know about anyone else but I learned something from your post there Stormcrow.Thanks for posting that info.
Now I just have to get someone who has built a hammer with a beam like this that is air powered rather than mechanical to see if an air cylinder makes any difference.
Anyone have any experience with this application?

[ajclay]

A 4x4x24" solid weighs about 108lbs. Why use tubing?

JE

JE, I've found the tubing, it was a little easier to find than the 4 x 4 solid. I've read that the anvil to hammer ratio of weight has a lot to do with how effective the hammer will work. I'm no expert, so I'm trying to stay close to the original design that Ron Kinyon came up with. He's built a bunch of the hammers, I've never built one even used one.. So I'm going to follow his lead.

One thing about the tubing I like... it has a 6 x 6 1.5 plate welded to the bottom to allow longer dies to be attached. That seems like a good thing to me..

Thanks for the comments!

Aj

[ajclay]

I think it is a neat looking design.
I particularly like the extended travel given by the spring.
I have a couple of questions though .if the spring is not acting as a spring why not use something stiffer and lighter? most of the old helves use wood . surly a spring is going to slow the whole system down by adding a delayed movement each time.
I am watching this with interest.
all the best Owen

Someone mentioned that earlier that the spring will flex and give a little wipping action to the ram. I haven't gave it much thought, but it does make since that 75lbs going up and down about 1.5 times a second would surly flex the spring. I'm hoping it will move that fast. We're going to find out. I'm going to keep the thread goind during the assembly and first use for sure.

I know I'm going to need a lot of pointers for you guys with the experiance on how to use it..

Thanks, Have a good new year!

Aj

[peacock]

One and a half times a second is 90 blows a minute. you want more like 240 bpm

[Stormcrow]

This design is essentially a guided helve hammer that replaces the eccentric and clutch with an air cylinder, right? I know I've seen pictures of a number of these kinds of hammers with the eccentric linkage positioned in the middle of the helve. Take a look through the different threads about helve hammers on here and see how their eccentric linkages are set up and it should help solidify how you want to position your air cylinder. To me it looks like it would be pretty much straight up and down and maybe replace the spring pivot at the top of the ram with a roller system a la Rusty. Then just a simple pivot at the back would do.

Also, you mentioned that the air cylinder pushes harder than it pulls. Wouldn't it make sense to turn the air cylinder the opposite way you have it drawn? That way it will be pulling the ram down onto the work with maximum force and then quickly raising it back up. Am I looking at this right?

The more I think about this basic design, the more I like it. I have been wondering the past week or so in an idle sort of way how one could set up a junkyard guided helve hammer with an air cylinder to give better control. This looks like a fairly elegant solution if you can get the positioning worked out.

[ajclay]

One and a half times a second is 90 blows a minute. you want more like 240 bpm

I was cross threaded, I don't multi-task well.. I ment to say 30 times a minute... I forgot to carry my one...

Aj

[ajclay]

Also, you mentioned that the air cylinder pushes harder than it pulls. Wouldn't it make sense to turn the air cylinder the opposite way you have it drawn? That way it will be pulling the ram down onto the work with maximum force and then quickly raising it back up. Am I looking at this right?

The air cylinder pulling the hammer down will add to the force of impact I'm sure, but the main thing is to have enough weight in the hammer to do the work in the first place. There is always someone wanting to forge a bigger piece of steel, They may need a bigger hammer. It's in my opinion, we need to have the right size tool for the job at hand. We all have to be realistic on what we're going to use the hammer for. Bigger steel will work slower, or maybe not at all in this hammer. I'm no expert, just an opinionated SOB... Thanks for the comments.

We are all thinking, and that's a good thing. Happy New Year!! Aj

[HWHII]

JE, I've found the tubing, it was a little easier to find than the 4 x 4 solid. I've read that the anvil to hammer ratio of weight has a lot to do with how effective the hammer will work. I'm no expert, so I'm trying to stay close to the original design that Ron Kinyon came up with. He's built a bunch of the hammers, I've never built one even used one.. So I'm going to follow his lead.

One thing about the tubing I like... it has a 6 x 6 1.5 plate welded to the bottom to allow longer dies to be attached. That seems like a good thing to me..

Thanks for the comments!

Aj

Aj You are smart by following Ron's lead. He hosted our AABA Demo in November at his shop. The Demo was one on power hammer techniques, tooling, and different types of power hammers. He had a whole line up starting with a 25lb Little Giant, 110 Big Blue, Striker, his original Kinyon and his new Kinyon. He ran each one showed the pros and cons of each and how to maintain them. It was one of the best demos I have been to in a long time. Learned alot. You are right the spring does seem to give it a whipping effect for more energy. It is a great hammer and simple, not much to go wrong with it and the adjustable stroke allows you to use alot on hand tooling underneath it.

[ajclay]

My business has been real slow, so I've been trying to do something on the hammer project each day. It's slow going working on such heavy parts. Real easy to hurt yourself or damage equipment.

As luck would have it, the main support tubing was about 5 inches short. I added on to the top of the tubing where the spring shackles mount. I put in a few cosmetic changes while I was making the parts so maybe the overall appearance of the hammer will improve.

The "guide box" and spacers that hold the ram, I decided to make them bolt on to the main support. I cut .025 deep slots in the tubing to lineup and locate 1in square cold rolled bars. These bars are what the guide box spacers will bolt to. So maybe in the end, the ram will be closer to straight and parallel to the main support. The next day or so I'll have more photos showing the spaces, I'm just about finished with them.

The 1.5in thick base plate is cut (24in x 36in) with four 1in diameter mounting holes drilled in the corners. I welded a temporary lifting ring in the center and used a forklift to put the plate in the mill. It's always fun to drill the big holes. Slow turning and big chips....

Thanks for checking in. AJ