New Style Kinyon Project / Drawing

[ajclay]

I've found most of the steel material. Looks like the base plate I'm going to purchase new. Just can't seem to find a plate that's good enough or thick enough.

I've taken the New Kinyon manual, read it from front to back, and this is what I came up with. I drew it with Autodesk Inventor 3D. It's better to find out something doesn't work on the computer instead of after it's welded together.

It has 9.5in stroke, and the ram/hammer is drawn like Ron specified. I am wondering, if you built one of these, what did you end up with for the overall stroke?

I'm going to start cutting the steel up Sunday. The anvil material I found is a shaft that's 8inches in dia and about 5ft long. A pretty good size hunk of steel. It weighs about 170lbs/ft. I had a 3inch thick, 18inch dia drop that I don't know what else to do with, so it's going under the anvil to add a little more weight. See what you think.

I'm going to post photos as I go along. I you're like me, I never get tired of looking at photos.... Aj

Kinyon 1.pdf

Kinyon.pdf

Kinyon 2.pdf

[monstermetal]

I think it looks fantastic! great job, if the hammer comes together as good as your drawing you it will be all aces and spades!

[ajclay]

I've gone as far as I can with the drawing at my skill level with Autodesk Inventor. The cylinder is on and it all functions. Ron Kinyon had a good idea when he designed this hammer. Take a quick look if you care. My belief, "if you can draw it, you can build it" It always nice to have a plan.... Merry Christmas!! AJ

Kinyon 3.pdf

Kinyon 4.pdf

Kinyon 5.pdf

[ajclay]

I couldn't stand it, I had to do something on the project. I used a Doall Silencer MPB 3-4 pitch blade with 10deg rake to cut the solid. It took about 25 minutes to saw though it without messing anything up. Blade speed was a little slower than recommended for the 4140 alloy.

I welded a couple of lifting rings on the bar to help handle moving it around. AJ

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

"if you can draw it, you can build it"

Funny, I always say "Just because you can draw it, doesn't mean you can build it"!

[monstermetal]

I can build lots of things I can't draw

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

And I can draw lotsa things I can't build!

[ajclay]

And I can draw lotsa things I can't build!

Ok... you guys... it has to be within your ability and knowledge.. That's where I'm coming from. I know what my ability is. It's so much I don't know. We all have to use common since and know our limits. Some people just think they know and can do more than they really can. I've already built that hammer on the computer and I know what it takes. I'm going to need you to show me how to use it though.... Yawl are tough today... Aj

[monstermetal]

I think the drawing is great and your working on the hammer. That's what counts ! You have already done more on your kinyon than I have on mine ;-)

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

We're not picking on you, we're just having fun!:lol:

[Mainely,Bob]

I think folks may be trying to caution you.I`ve seen many people who thought they could paint end up in a corner waiting for someone to come rescue them.

Some of the questions I`d be asking of those with more experience than I have are things like,"here`s my preliminary drawing,what are your suggestions and what details do I need to pay attention to?".
Another approach that will bring useful feedback is "what are some of the things have folks found most useful when you built your hammers and what would you change if you built it again?".
Having someone you can go to who has already completed the process is far more important to me than trying to re-invent the wheel or impress people.Be honest and up front about your real world skill level and budget limits and I think you`ll find you`ll get all the help and support you need here.I know I have.

[ajclay]

Bob, Yep I know what you're talking about. And that's what I wanted, just went about it wrong. This site is so good... I've read just about anything and everything in here about power hammers and settled on the kinyon design because it's pruven and not to technical. Seems to be a good first hammer.

Still have some questions though.

What's the optimal height for the anvil?? I know it's a personal preference, but I would think a little high is better than low? What you think.... about "hip" level?? I don't want to cut that big hunk of steel off and wish it was a couple of inchs longer...

Thanks for the comments!! Aj

[peacock]

I like my lower die the same height as my anvil. I am used to looking at things at that distance ( I know where my bifocals focus). Also if I am forging heavy steel my arms are not bent at the elbow very much this helps to not hold the the work below center which will cause the work beyond the die to bend down. also if the work is large or a little too cool holding it low will cause the work to kick up toward your head. Another advantage is I some times support the end of long stock on the hammer lower die while working the other end on my anvil with a hand hammer.

I would think about cutting the anvil short so I could make a sow block about 6 inches thick. This will allow you to be able to remove the sow block if you need to use tooling or other wise need more room between the dies. Much easier now than later.

[arftist]

Aj, is this the new Kinyon design, or your interpretation?

It apears to be a spring helve, true?

In your second set of drawings, if it is a spring, the piston is mounted so close to the ram attachment that it appears there will be little if any spring effect. I like the overall idea, a variable stroke hammer, by sliding the air piston attachment point back or forth.

Your drawings are wonderful and the design of the hammer is clean and shapely.

As to the anvil height, I suggest you research this thoroughly. I am pretty sure this topic has come up here before. With absolutely no disrepect to Peacock, I think many builders set their anvils considerably higher than their hand anvils. I cut 13" from my 9" diameter solid round bar, felt pretty good about it at the time, hammer works good, but I lessened the mass of the anvil by over 200 pounds in the process.

One other thing, it looks like your ram consists of tube rather than solid, I hope that is not the plan.

[monstermetal]

I would never set a power hammer anvil at the same height as my anvil... way too low (I shouldn't say never, if I had a 750 or 1000 lb hammer I probably would) My 135'b hammers anvil is set at 40", my Nazel 3B at 37"...

My theory...
You want a chunk of iron to be level when its on the die and you are standing upright in front of the thing at the treadle ( the bigger the hammer, the bigger the stock might be and thus the die slightly lower) If you put it too high or too low it will make it harder to keep things square and tire you out using it... Most power hammer anvils are way too low, you have to haunch over to use the machine, its hard on your back and hard to see what your doing..

[peacock]

Monstermetal, I agree with your theory. For me that is about 34 inches. All of my hammers lower dies are from 331/2 to 34 inches. My hand anvil is 33.
Back straight, arms nearly extended. I Guess everyone is built different, it seems to work for me.

[ajclay]

I would never set a power hammer anvil at the same height as my anvil... way too low (I shouldn't say never, if I had a 750 or 1000 lb hammer I probably would) My 135'b hammers anvil is set at 40", my Nazel 3B at 37"...

My theory...
You want a chunk of iron to be level when its on the die and you are standing upright in front of the thing at the treadle ( the bigger the hammer, the bigger the stock might be and thus the die slightly lower) If you put it too high or too low it will make it harder to keep things square and tire you out using it... Most power hammer anvils are way too low, you have to haunch over to use the machine, its hard on your back and hard to see what your doing..

One thing I know, my hand anvil I'm using now is to low... It kills my back if I spend a day working, so that's why this is really important. I haven't seen a lot of power hammers in person, but a lot of the one's I've seen on the net, the anvil appears to be way low as you pointed out. The smith is hunched over....

The heaviest material I'll work with will be around 1in square bar so I'm making the power hammer anvil height about 40in like yours. I'll be able to put the steel in the hammer and it'll be about waist high. That will make it easy for me to hold and my back will be straight. That's the main thing in my book....

Then the other thing, it will keep the anvil weight heavier. The longer the heavier. A few inches makes a difference when we're talking about 8in solid bar.

I'm going to cut that 8in round beast tomorrow.

Thanks, Aj

[ajclay]

Aj, is this the new Kinyon design, or your interpretation?

It apears to be a spring helve, true?

In your second set of drawings, if it is a spring, the piston is mounted so close to the ram attachment that it appears there will be little if any spring effect. I like the overall idea, a variable stroke hammer, by sliding the air piston attachment point back or forth.

Your drawings are wonderful and the design of the hammer is clean and shapely.

As to the anvil height, I suggest you research this thoroughly. I am pretty sure this topic has come up here before. With absolutely no disrepect to Peacock, I think many builders set their anvils considerably higher than their hand anvils. I cut 13" from my 9" diameter solid round bar, felt pretty good about it at the time, hammer works good, but I lessened the mass of the anvil by over 200 pounds in the process.

One other thing, it looks like your ram consists of tube rather than solid, I hope that is not the plan.

Arftest, Yes this is the New Kinyon design. I drew it using the materials I've found over the last couple of weeks. The overall design is like Ron Kinyon drew up. Every one has to figure out how long the pieces should be before they're cut. Some do it in their head, on paper, on the steel table with chalk, I do it on computer. I's just easier for me that way..

The ram is made from 4in square tubing 1/2in thick with a piece of 1.5 in plate welded to the bottom where the dies bolt on. This seems to be a touchy topic about a ram being hollow. I'm by all means no expert, but it seems to me as long as the wieght is there, there shouldn't be a problem. Ron has it layed out using a 24in piece of the tubing. When the ram is complete it'll weigh about 75 lbs. So you think that will really matter??

Thanks for the in put!.. Aj

[Dragons lair]

If I may the angle of the cyl to the spring says the piston is going to top load the ram ( PUSHING IT OUT INSTED OF UP) dID i MISS SOMPHING?

[arftist]

So you think that will really matter??

Yep. I really think it will matter. What does the tube do that makes it worth using at all? Why use tube instead of solid for a hammer?

If there is an actual benefit to using tube, fine, but I can't think of any. If it is about cost, I am totaly blown away by that. When I built my seventyfive pound hammer, I spent about $100 on the ram it self, 2 1/4 x 4" x 24" cold finnished steel. Steel has about doubled in cost since then.

Hammers in general, air hammers especialy; By choosing an air hammer, you are already comprimising effiency in a big way, electrical waste of 2-3 times that of a mechanical hammer. By choosing a lnkage air hammer rather than a direct hammer, you introduce extra friction, unsprung weight and an eliptical motion as Ken pointed out, all of which again reduces effiency. I am not saying you won't be able to mash 1" sq.bar, but there will be a lot of wasted energy, some of it not electrical, but your body, as you bounce at the other end of the bar, as it slowly takes shape.

Now for the kicker, anvil to hammer mass ratio. From what I understand, your anvil will weigh in the neighborhood of 600 pounds. A seventyfive pound hollow hammer dancing on that truly will make your work (small) difficult to acomplish. A 50# solid hammmer would be far more effective and efficient.

Think of the difference between my hammer head and your proposed one. A blow struck by center of your ram has 1 1/2" of metal to resist flexing, not counting the die. My hammer has 24" of thickness to resist flexing. Quite a difference.

[nonjic]

If there is an actual benefit to using tube, fine, but I can't think of any

I think you will get a much higher % of 'guided area to mass' with a hollow section. Think if I was going with this design of hammer I would have a very solid plug that consisted of about 50% of the total ram weight firmly secured in the end of tube section.

Be interested to see some vids of this type of hammer running, my brain isnt really 'seeing' the angle that the cylinder / spring etc are operating at throughout its motion range., to many mince pies and brandys ??? :D

[arftist]

I think you will get a much higher % of 'guided area to mass' with a hollow section. Think if I was going with this design of hammer I would have a very solid plug that consisted of about 50% of the total ram weight firmly secured in the end of tube section.

Be interested to see some vids of this type of hammer running, my brain isnt really 'seeing' the angle that the cylinder / spring etc are operating at throughout its motion range., to many mince pies and brandys ???

Thats good, because the eliptical path the ram wants to take is going to require a lot of guidance.

[Mainely,Bob]

Here are some questions I have about this design.
While I can see where it would be useful to have the ability to adjust the attachment point of the cylinder to the leaf spring in order to dial in the hammer for both max performance and space between the dies,wouldn`t you want the cylinder to be as near vertical as possible for best action and performance?
I understand that there needs to be some sort of linkage on one end of the spring(like the shackle that connects one end of a leaf spring to the frame on your car) to allow the transition of movement from an arc to straight line.Wouldn`t that linkage be better set above the ram rather than the column?The way it is in the drawing the leaf spring becomes part of an assembly who`s inertia will be contributing to throwing the ram front to back.I would think there would be less wear and tear if the spring were solidly mounted to the column and the linkage placed over the ram.Set up this way you prevent the leaf spring from moving front to back with the reciprocating assembly.Smaller and lighter assembly in motion(front to back)= less wear in that direction and less power wasted overcoming inertia.
My next question may be common sense to some of you but it`s baffling me.If an air cylinder functions like a spring in these applications where the air in the cylinder compresses and provides the same kind of "whip" action that a spring would then why does the cylinder need to be attached to a leaf spring?Are the actions of the cylinder and the leaf spring that different that you need to have both?What this looks like to me is an air powered guided helve hammer with a flexible rather than a rigid beam.Doesn`t the air cylinder take the place of the rubber cushions or springs we see attached to the beams on guided helves?If so I`m not seeing the need for the leaf spring.What am I missing?

Arftist brings up a good point.A solid piece of steel will add both hitting power and resistance to flex as long as it is a compact mass of optimum size and shape.Once you reach your target weight then I would think that the portion of the ram/tup that is contained within the guides could be hollow(as long as it had thick enough walls) as the guides will both support it and contain any flexing.Maybe half and half wouldn`t be such a bad idea in some cases.More labor intensive but if you are limited in material and have the time...

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated,as always.

[nonjic]

Thats good, because the eliptical path the ram wants to take is going to require a lot of guidance.

thats pretty well what im seeing when I look at the sketchs! What the point of this design? is it to accelerate the ram faster than the maximum cylinder speed?

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I think this design is meant to overcome a few shortcoming in the original design. Putting the cylinder on top makes for a pretty tall machine. Having a spring between the cylinder and the ram reduces the shock on the connection and the need to align things perfectly. Many of the old design failed where the cylinder rod connected to the ram. I would mount the cylinder very near vertical to minimize some of the component forces.

As John N. pointed out, for the same weight, a tubular ram gives much more bearing area and/or length. I think most self-contained hammers have tubular rams.