ajclay Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 I think the spring should be stiffer if you move the cylinder rod connexion back to the middle of the spring... There's also an advantage to the 'arm' actuated ram, the cylinder ports are bigger (as said above) and the cylinder stroke is shorter so the piston travels at lower speed than the ram, reducing wear of the seals. And I'm not sure but I think this way also increases max bpm You guys are bringing up good points. Simple as this hammer looks, there's a lot going on up top. A bunch of factors come in to play... When I get it running I'm going to move things around to test the performance. Thanks, Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 You PM'ed me about pilot/pilot vs pilot/spring valves. I don't see any advantage to the pilot/pilot, the spring return seems like the simplest. I’ve searched the internet for everything I could find on the Kinyon hammers and all the different controls that people have put on them. Some of them use one pilot and a spring loaded spool valve and others use two pilots and a two position spool. Some like the Coleman link the treadle to the valves and others just control the exhaust air. So it’s obvious that lots of scenarios work if you just want the hammer to go bam bam. But if you want to be able to control the hammer for different types and convenience of forging, I think one design is definitely better over another. I’m not sure if I understand how the simplest single pilot-spring spool-control the exhaust with treadle works. I think it is something like this: The spool in its normal position drives the tup up. When it makes contact with the pilot in the up position it changes direction and drives it down. The treadle opens or closes the exhaust valve controlling the speed and whether the hammer is on or off. Someone please correct me if I’m not correct. So with this single pilot design my first observation is that when you take your foot off the treadle, the tup could stop in any position. It doesn’t necessarily stop in the up position. Secondly, the only way to change the stroke or the force of the blow is to move the position of the pilot valve. If you could link the position of the pilot to the treadle, that would be an improvement. The single pilot with a spring return spool valve may be the simplest and cheapest but it limits the control and timing of the hammer. You will be forever adjusting where the pilot is for the type of forging you are doing. You may be able to control the speed with the treadle but the stroke is always the same relative to the position of the pilot valve. Many of the same issues exist with a two pilot system if the position of one of the valves is not linked to the treadle in some fashion. But at least the hammer will always stop with the dies open. And there is something else to consider between a one or two pilot system that is not so obvious. The position of a spring loaded spool is always the same if the pilot is not pressurized. Not so with a two position spool. With a two pilots and two position spool you can achieve many timing scenarios because you can have an overlap where both pilots are pressurized and the spool does not move from where the first pressurized pilot positioned it until it goes to exhaust. There is yet another configuration to consider where you have one five port two position mini pilot valve controlling a five port two position spool. I believe that is what Thomas Troszak uses on the Phoenix hammers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 I knew this was going to get deep fast. I starting to understand a little about how things work. Building a hammer is the easiest, measure, cut and weld. But the operation of the hammer is somewhat of a mystery because I've never used one. So that being said, I don't know what I need or don't need for controls. The Bull design attracts me because of the challenge of making all the parts and adapting to my hammer. Drawing and build things is a wonderful hobby. Makes me happy and keeps me out of trouble. I've got to learn and experience how the New Style Kinyon is going to work with the simplest form of controls. Once I get a little time under my belt with the hammer I'll better understand what the other controls offer. Sooner or later I'm going to have a hammer with the Bull type controls. It may not be this Kinyon, it may be a clone of the Bull... Thanks for explaining the spring/pilot further. But, even the simplest, still isn't exactly crystal yet. Got to study this more.. Thanks again, Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 There's a bunch of these cartoons out there, but I haven't seen one for this hammer. There's a time factor that I don't have a handle on. It takes time for the air to move from one place to another and while that is happening the ram is moving. How much I guess it depends on where the top pilot valve is set, how quickly the exhaust is going out, and how fast the ram is moving. Simplest air spool valve - spring return - one pilot valve. Below is what happens ( I THINK ) when the air turned on only... Foot off of treadle.. 1) Everything in the spool valve is at atmospheric pressure. The spring has moved the piston to one end in the spool valve. 2) Air (100psi) is turned on and the ram rises (treadle not stepped on) (exhaust valve is closed)Piston in spool valve lets air flow to the bottom of air cylinder. 3) Ram hits roller valve at top of stroke. the pilot roller valve lets 100psi into the top of the spool valve, air pressure over comes spring pressure on piston in the spool valve and now it lowers. 4) 100psi is diverted to the top of air cylinder and the ram starts to lower. 4) Exhaust still closed, the ram lowers till the pressure in the bottom of air cylinder gets to the same pressure as the 100psi is putting on the top of the air cylinder. 5) With surface area being larger under the air cylinder piston it should stop before it gets half way on the down stroke. Does this make sense so far...?? Close to the way things work?? Once I get this straight in my head then I'll step on the treadle. I'm just trying to make things go (bam) (bam) as ciladog puts it. Thanks, Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 1) Everything in the spool valve is at atmospheric pressure. The spring has moved the piston to one end in the spool valve. 2) Air (100psi) is turned on and the ram rises (treadle not stepped on) (exhaust valve is closed)Piston in spool valve lets air flow to the bottom of air cylinder. 3) Ram hits roller valve at top of stroke. the pilot roller valve lets 100psi into the top of the spool valve, air pressure over comes spring pressure on piston in the spool valve and now it lowers. 4) 100psi is diverted to the top of air cylinder and the ram starts to lower. 4) Exhaust still closed, the ram lowers till the pressure in the bottom of air cylinder gets to the same pressure as the 100psi is putting on the top of the air cylinder. 5) With surface area being larger under the air cylinder piston it should stop before it gets half way on the down stroke. AJ Only problem with your explanation is that with the exhaust valve closed, the cylinder can not move. There is no place for the air in the top of the cylinder to go so it doesn't move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 AJ Only problem with your explanation is that with the exhaust valve closed, the cylinder can not move. There is no place for the air in the top of the cylinder to go so it doesn't move. Yep, that makes sense. So with this type of set up, spring/pilot - nothing moves without opening the exhaust valve. That in turn means, all stops (ram) at any given location when the exhaust valve closes... Does that sound right? Thanks, AJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I hate to make this any more confusing than it already is.. But there is another "Bull" control system, that used on all the newer style hammers as well as the Phoenix hammers. None of those angle bits, all controlled on a single pivot point and a arm that attaches to the tup... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yep, that makes sense. So with this type of set up, spring/pilot - nothing moves without opening the exhaust valve. That in turn means, all stops (ram) at any given location when the exhaust valve closes... Does that sound right? Thanks, AJ I think that sounds right and since nobody has said otherwise I guess it is correct. There in lies the problem with controlling the hammer by regulating only the exhaust with a one pilot spring spool setup. But even on a two pilot setup you need some kind of a connection between the treadle and the exhaust valve so you can control the speed of the hammer. But on a two valve system you don't necessarily have to completely close off the exhaust if the treadle is also connected to one of the pilots. You should go back and look at the Coleman controls or mine and you will see that the treadle is connected to both a pilot valve and the exhaust valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 I think that sounds right and since nobody has said otherwise I guess it is correct. There in lies the problem with controlling the hammer by regulating only the exhaust with a one pilot spring spool setup. But even on a two pilot setup you need some kind of a connection between the treadle and the exhaust valve so you can control the speed of the hammer. But on a two valve system you don't necessarily have to completely close off the exhaust if the treadle is also connected to one of the pilots. You should go back and look at the Coleman controls or mine and you will see that the treadle is connected to both a pilot valve and the exhaust valve. Ciladog, lets stay focused on the simplest scenario regardless on how flawed it is. Doesn't controlling the exhaust valve control the speed...? Seems to me it does. It controls how fast the cylinder moves, because it can't move till the air is bled off in the direction it's going... Bleed it off fast and the cylinder moves fast.... Monstermetal, you having fun stirring the pot?? Thanks ciladog. AJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 I hate to make this any more confusing than it already is.. But there is another "Bull" control system, that used on all the newer style hammers as well as the Phoenix hammers. None of those angle bits, all controlled on a single pivot point and a arm that attaches to the tup... Lets take that thing apart and see what makes it go.... Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I hate to make this any more confusing than it already is.. But there is another "Bull" control system, that used on all the newer style hammers as well as the Phoenix hammers. None of those angle bits, all controlled on a single pivot point and a arm that attaches to the tup... I know about the Phoenix controls. I recently was involved in repairing one that was made after Troszak sold his company. I got to tell you that it's not as good as his original design. It may be more compact but not as good. It’s just my opinion. And I mentioned it about 6 posts back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Ciladog, lets stay focused on the simplest scenario regardless on how flawed it is. Doesn't controlling the exhaust valve control the speed...? Seems to me it does. It controls how fast the cylinder moves, because it can't move till the air is bled off in the direction it's going... Bleed it off fast and the cylinder moves fast.... Monstermetal, you having fun stirring the pot?? Thanks ciladog. AJ Yes that is all it controlls, on-off, how fast. But it has nothing to do with stroke or force except that force is a function of the inertia of the ram so if you slow it down you get less force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yes that is all it controls, on-off, how fast. But it has nothing to do with stroke or force except that force is a function of the inertia of the ram so if you slow it down you get less force. OK, I've got the full picture of the spring/pilot set up. Now if we use a pilot/pilot set up... the only thing that will do for me, it would will allow me to stop the ram short of the bottom die if I wanted to put a drift or a tool on top of the work. I'd have to relocate the 2nd pilot manually. Am I trying to do something that most backyard hammers don't do with this type of simple setup? Me not having any experience with a hammer, is it really necessary to stop the ram short in that scenario? As for the ram moving to the top and holding.... that still hasn't be accomplished yet correct? Thanks again for you time on this... AJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Below is an explanation a fellow sent me of how his hammer works with two pilot valves. It's an old style kinyon with the air cylinder mounted on top. When adding air first from the air compressor. 0 psi to line pressure 130 psi The hammer may cycle through up to 3 times as air pressure stabilizes on both sides of the cylinder. It will automatically trip the roller valves and the there fore the spool valve until there is equal pressure on both sides of the platen. Keep fingers out of the way. I also keep a small block of wood on the dies to prevent them from impacting cold. It may stop at any point in the cycle. As you release a bit of air with the foot peddle it will start to travel either up or down depending where in the cycle it is. (most often I find it starts to travel up) Once it activates the roller switch in its travel (either up or down) it reverses its direction. While running much the same happens. You take your foot off the peddle and it can stop anywhere in the cycle. If you need it in the up position and it stops in the down position, I just tap the foot peddle once or twice. This exhausts just a bit of air and the hammer head rises. This takes a bit of practice but only a little bit. If it consistently does a full cycle through when you tap the foot valve, I would tighten the guide bolts on the bearing nylon just a bit and it will slow it down a touch. I hope this helps. In short yes you will have to give a short tap to exhaust a bit of air if it stops in the down position to raise the hammer head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 A follow up about spool valves, spring/pilot verses the pilot/pilot design. The smith I'm getting information from builds and sells simple hammers and holds classes on how to use them. So I'd say he knows about "his world" that's for sure. Below was the second reply: The first hammers I built had the spring return on the spool valve. In general this configuration is simple and works fairly well but... I wore the spring out. The place where I buy the spool valve from said the spring was good for about a million hits. I figured that was about right and that was about 4 or 5 years in use of the machine. The second roller valve eliminates this problem, although replacing the spring was not a big job. (took much more time to travel to the store to get the new spring) The biggest difference was being able to control not only the size of the cycle, but where the cycle bottoms out. That is to say I can adjust the roller valves so that the hammer will run but the two dies don't touch each other. This allows for a very light touch for specialized texturing, or for using short punches and chisels under the dies. It really adds a level of versatility while prolonging the life of the internal parts. That is not to say that roller valves and spool valves won't need replacing at some point. I did find the spring gave out much sooner than any of the other parts. So the spring return will work. I just found it did not last as long as the double pilot, and the double pilot was more versatile. There you go.... Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 I've been meaning to post the information on Norgren spool valves I got the other day. On the very last page it has a part number brake down that will tell all about the Nugget 500 series spool valves. Later, AJN-500 APC-102.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 I've got a little more information on Norgren parts. The "super x" pilot valves. This seems to be a common pilot valve used on air hammers. Download the attached document and look on the bottom of page "val-7-3" 1/4in 3/2 mechanical valves. "03 0611 22" seems to be the basic valve needed. Later, AJSec02SuperX - pilot valves.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Where you at AJ??? :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Sorry.. I got left behind there for a bit... I dont have the hammer, its at my dads... so no chance to dissect it for study... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferguson Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I have a few general questions. If you use a 2 inch cylinder, how large are the ports? Where can you buy cylinders with large ports? How much? I noticed that most 2 inch standard air cylinders have smallish ports, maybe 1/4 NPT. Sounds like cushions are a good idea for the cylinder, maybe even adjustable cushions. If you go with two limit switches, do you then buy a three position valve? I think that you can buy two position valves with two pilots and no spring, or three position valves with two pilots and a spring center return. The three position valves might have all ports blocked in the center position, is that an advantage? Why? Would that conserve air? If you only had a two position valve, what is the advantage of the two pilots with two switches vs. a single switch and a spring return? I can see that two limit switches provides a bit more flexibility. Having the limit switch position tied to the treadle in some way adds complexity, but some advantages as well. No matter what arrangement you use, you might still need to manually adjust the limit switch position if you wanted to use taller tooling, at least if you wanted full power with taller tooling. The advantage of the new Kinyon design is mostly lower height and fewer alignment problems with the cylinder, right? I know that the spring adds some "whip", but only if it is tuned correctly. If you want to understand how to "tune" the spring of the hammer, take a look at this article, addresses mechanically driven helve hammers but applies to this design as well, due to the spring.Hammer tuning Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Great document Richard, it sums up very well hammer tuning So Aj, where are you hiding ? I'm lacking of power hammer build up story Hope everything is alright and your project still moving on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 My guess is AJ got some of that nasty stuff we all find ourselves doing from time to time called " paying work" At least I hope that is what happened... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 My guess is AJ got some of that nasty stuff we all find ourselves doing from time to time called " paying work" At least I hope that is what happened... Mostermetal called it right. I finally got a couple of jobs in the shop... thank goodness!! I made $500 in January. That tells the story on how slow my shop was. This month looks better but still not great. I ordered a 9.5 long cylinder and returned the 12in long cylinder I purchased a while back. I just received the new cylinder this past Wednesday. So next week I'm going to check the mounting position again and hopefully it will work out this time. Ron Kinyon mentioned to me that he was using an 8in long cylinder 2in dia. The spool valve had 3/8 ports and operated without problems. There's so much talk about big ports, big spool valves, custom cylinders, modified ports, it just goes on and on. I'm going to use my cylinder with 3/8 ports and a spool valve with 1/2 ports - 1/2 air lines. I feel the bigger air lines has to be less restrictive. I may rub on the air cylinder ports a little to make things flow a little better, but I'm not going to loose sleep about it. We will all find out how this air hammer works in the near future. We'll know what not to do then. Good or bad I'll put a movie up on this hammer.... Thanks for the cards and letters!! Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 I have a few general questions. If you use a 2 inch cylinder, how large are the ports? Where can you buy cylinders with large ports? How much? I noticed that most 2 inch standard air cylinders have smallish ports, maybe 1/4 NPT. Sounds like cushions are a good idea for the cylinder, maybe even adjustable cushions. If you go with two limit switches, do you then buy a three position valve? I think that you can buy two position valves with two pilots and no spring, or three position valves with two pilots and a spring center return. The three position valves might have all ports blocked in the center position, is that an advantage? Why? Would that conserve air? If you only had a two position valve, what is the advantage of the two pilots with two switches vs. a single switch and a spring return? I can see that two limit switches provides a bit more flexibility. Having the limit switch position tied to the treadle in some way adds complexity, but some advantages as well. No matter what arrangement you use, you might still need to manually adjust the limit switch position if you wanted to use taller tooling, at least if you wanted full power with taller tooling. The advantage of the new Kinyon design is mostly lower height and fewer alignment problems with the cylinder, right? I know that the spring adds some "whip", but only if it is tuned correctly. If you want to understand how to "tune" the spring of the hammer, take a look at this article, addresses mechanically driven helve hammers but applies to this design as well, due to the spring.Hammer tuning Richard Richard, you've gone way past my knowledge on spool valves and hammers. I'm going to follow Ron Kinyons lead on the design and parts. I believe you called it correct about the new design though. As for the whip in the spring... Ron hasn't mentioned anything about that in our e-mails. It's a short stout spring, it may or may not flex. I don't see it being anything other than a convenient spot to mount the air cylinder at this stage of the game, and I guess it really matters on how I'm gong to work it.. Getting more ram movement from a shorter cylinder stroke has to be some kind of positive advantage right ?? Thanks for the comments. Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 This is one of the jobs I finished the last week or so. It's slow going building parts this heavy. 1/2in thick 8in I beam, material rack for a fabrication shop of all places... They were to busy to build it. Wish I had those problems..! AJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.