peacock Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 If you drill and tap the frame you can make a bolt on bracket, then if it don't suit you, you can remove/replace the lower mount without messing anything up. I think the farther to the rear the upper attachment is the faster the ram velocity will be. I also think more distance between the ram and top cylinder mount the easier it will be on the cylinder as the spring can flex more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 This is going to be a great looking hammer no doubt but as far as messing up the paint cant you mock up try it then tear it down for finish? I to feel the top is to close to the head but I don't have much experience in the types of hammers. I sent an e-mail right to the top.... Ron Kinyon. We'll see if he sheds any light on the subject. Bob said, if I paint it, I'll have a good chance I'll have to cut and weld something on it, and if I pen stripe it, my chances are three times greater that I'll have to cut and weld something. Knowing how my little mind works, if I start using this hammer and it's not painted, it will never get painted. I'll move on to the next project. I have trouble back tracking. Thanks, Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 It will be interesting to see what Ron says... I think I would cut a hole in the frame riser and build a bracket to mount the cylinder that fits in a pocket... Nice and clean and would move the cylinder back to give you more depth around the die... You could position it are a steeper angle and still have the clearance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 AJ, I think your machining and welding skills are very proficient and the hammer is coming out very well. But I just don’t understand why you would put that much effort into making a hammer of that design when clearly you are capable of building almost any hammer design. As I understand Ron's reason for designing this type of hammer was simplicity of construction and not the efficiency of the hammer. Abana link pdf Maybe I don’t understand the advantage of incorporating the spring on a hammer that is driven by a pneumatic cylinder. I think you are giving up control of flat die (tool) forging. I’d rather use a self-contained type hammer (or directly driven by the cylinder) then a spring loaded type hammer anytime. I guess a lot will depend on how you are going to configure your pneumatic valve controls but that spring will make it hard to control your stroke. I think you will, in time find the spring to be problematic. It’s not too late to rethink the design. Springs were added to hammers for several reasons; to gain acceleration but more importantly was to allow for ‘give’ when the hammer was mechanically driven. A pneumatic cylinder provides both. It just seems redundant to me with another component to maintain. Why did you pick this design? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 If you drill and tap the frame you can make a bolt on bracket, then if it don't suit you, you can remove/replace the lower mount without messing anything up. I think the farther to the rear the upper attachment is the faster the ram velocity will be. I also think more distance between the ram and top cylinder mount the easier it will be on the cylinder as the spring can flex more. I'm glad you mentioned that. All the darn holes I've drilled and tapped over the past week or so, I was thinking a weld on bracket, not bolt on. I could weld a "boss" on the rear tube that would accept any length cylinder bracket that's needed.... The cylinder bracket could "plug-in" and bolt. Great, thanks for the idea!!! The spring business flexing and the speed of the ram. Realistically, I'll be running this thing slow so maybe the placement really won't have much to do with anything in my case. But never the less, I want this build right, the best it can be the fist time around. Thanks Again! Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 AJ, I think your machining and welding skills are very proficient and the hammer is coming out very well. But I just don’t understand why you would put that much effort into making a hammer of that design when clearly you are capable of building almost any hammer design. As I understand Ron's reason for designing this type of hammer was simplicity of construction and not the efficiency of the hammer. Abana link pdf Maybe I don’t understand the advantage of incorporating the spring on a hammer that is driven by a pneumatic cylinder. I think you are giving up control of flat die (tool) forging. I’d rather use a self-contained type hammer (or directly driven by the cylinder) then a spring loaded type hammer anytime. I guess a lot will depend on how you are going to configure your pneumatic valve controls but that spring will make it hard to control your stroke. I think you will, in time find the spring to be problematic. It’s not too late to rethink the design. Springs were added to hammers for several reasons; to gain acceleration but more importantly was to allow for ‘give’ when the hammer was mechanically driven. A pneumatic cylinder provides both. It just seems redundant to me with another component to maintain. Why did you pick this design? You're right on target with your assessment of the project. There's always a better hammer, bigger, smaller, faster, and efficient one as you pointed out. I may have a few skills and tools the next guy doesn't have, but I know nothing of the hammer world. Mechanical or Air. I surly don't know how to use one. So I had to start somewhere, and this is the start of my learning process. Not to mention keeping the investment to a minimum if it doesn't fit into my program or business. Thanks for the complement on ability, but we all have limitations and I like to stay in my comfort zone. I've learned that it's always 10 times more to something than at first glance, so I don't set the bar to high at first. I don't mind paying my dues.. One thing I like about this project, I won't have to go outside of my 4 walls to get something cut or machined. I built a cnc plasma machine a several years back. Took me two years to build and make operational. I had to machine / make almost every part at a friends shop. He had the lathes and milling machines. That's a hard thing to do and doubles the build time. We all do what we have to, but I'm not going to do that again... Thanks Aj PSS that pdf you sent a link to.. you see the angle of the air cylinder and how it's mounted?? I maybe way over thinking this or just making it to complicated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 AJ, Self-built hammers are usually matched to the skill set of the individual building it. You have the skill set to build any hammer you want to. True that there are many designs of hammers but they all have a coefficient of efficiency based on that design. Why are you building a hammer that was designed for ease of construction rather than designed for maximum efficiency and control? While it’s true that until you use a power hammer you don’t know what to expect or what ability the hammer must have for your needs, but that is no reason to just build just any hammer for the sake of building. Ultimately, what you want from a hammer is multi faceted. Yes, you want to pound the heck out of a piece of steel but you also want to be able to barely touch that steel for planishing. You will want the hammer to be capable of a single blow of varying forces for tool work. You will want it to run fast sometimes and slow sometimes with equal control. It’s not just about force but more about control. I don’t want to rain on your parade but you need to stop and think about this where you are on your project. When I was ready to build my hammer, I researched all the designs I could find. I tried hammers that I had access to. What I decided to build was not considered the norm by any means. It doesn’t look like a hammer should look by the standards. But I can control this hammer like I have not seen in any other hammer. It has a 120# head and run at 120psi will hit like a 400# hammer. I can make the stroke 12” or just 5”. I can run it from 30 strokes per minute to 200 SPM. I can place the stroke anywhere on the column. If I had it to do over, I would take my hammer over any other one out there. If you would like to see it here is a link to a thread on IFI. More work went into the pneumatic controls than into the rest of the hammer. Hammer thread As far as I’m concerned, control is more important than power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 Ok, I got a direction. It may be the wrong direction, but I'm moving forward. I made a piece to weld on the main support that the cylinder mount arm will bolt to. This will allow me to make any size length bracket that's needed, if this turns into some kind of problem. Also it will allow an arm that's is offset higher or lower too. I believe this is going to be the best option at this stage of the game. Ill drill the holes in the arm and dummy it up the next day or so. Thanks guys for the input. Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I would still let it rust and get oil all over it B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 I would still let it rust and get oil all over it It really doesn't work any better with a fancy epoxy paint job... All the parts are so thick, they won't rust out in my life time... Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 This is what the "master" Ron wrote back about the cylinder angle: Don't get hung up on the angle, I have 4 hammers running in my area for the last 5 years. The guide wear, UHMW has only been about .002-.003" per year. Keep the cylinder base next to the column so you have room to forge odd shaped pieces. I use a 8" stroke cylinder, the distance back from the head makes the head move 10.5" stroke. My hammer uses a 18" spring with the cylinder attached 4" back of the head center mount. The 8" cylinder stroke was used to cut down on air usage and still get a 10" stroke of the hammer head. I also use cylinders with the air cushion on the rod end. Use a PTFE lube on the head guides, spray can stuff works fine, lubricant not penetrate. The leaf spring does add some give in the system, and is a convenient method for pivots and mounting. The hammer is meant to be a SIMPLE AIR HAMMER which most smiths can build at home or in their shops with basic tools. Paul's plans are based on a build they did in Wisconsin, they made some mods, but nothing major. Nice to see the level of work you are doing, good job. Thank You Ron for taking time to comment on your hammer design. AJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 After I received the info from Ron Kinyon I shortened up the bottom bracket for the air cylinder. I had to re-shape it somewhat because the bottom of the cylinder hit in the corner of the bracket. The one dimension I took off of the cylinder drawing was wrong. The bottom ears on the cylinder was a good bit shorter than what I had drawn and that caused problems. Assuming something is correct is the "mother of all screwups".... I got it worked out and still had a little time left in the day to make the two shackles that will hold the spring on top. Slow but sure, I'm pecking away at the project. Thanks, Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 i know where a nazel 2b has been sitting in weather fo over twenty years sacralidge i know would it still be able to get running? or is it so much scrap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 First class..... One thing I am kind of sad about is that you really dont have a lot of other hammer experience.. I would really like to know how your hammer performs in relationship to a known... Like a 50lb little giant for instance.. I think your going to have a lot of fun with it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 First class..... One thing I am kind of sad about is that you really dont have a lot of other hammer experience.. I would really like to know how your hammer performs in relationship to a known... Like a 50lb little giant for instance.. I think your going to have a lot of fun with it... You know what's even worse... I probably shouldn't say... But you guys talk about all kind of hammers and I don't have a clue about what kind they are or what they look like. I've got a buddy that has a "tire" hammer he purchased from someone in Mississippi.. He turned it on and made a couple of strokes with it and that's all I've seen in person. I've been doing scroll work (basic stuff) for my business for several years and I'm having trouble with my arm from time to time. That's what has got me on the air hammer project. I whish you weren't so far away, I'd like to have you give it a try and have a couple of beers.... Come on down for Mardi-Gras... Thanks, Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 i know where a nazel 2b has been sitting in weather fo over twenty years sacralidge i know would it still be able to get running? or is it so much scrap? There you go... I don't have a clue about what that looks like, or how big it is.. I'm going to do a search to find out. Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 First class..... One thing I am kind of sad about is that you really dont have a lot of other hammer experience.. I would really like to know how your hammer performs in relationship to a known... Like a 50lb little giant for instance.. I think your going to have a lot of fun with it... Man, thats what I like about this project, and the way we can toss around ideas and information. You can take what you want and kind of invent the rest. This guy is going for it. Perfect? nope, but...When there's nothing to compare it to, its the best. Thanks for the photo's, they make (some) sense to a wannabe machinist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 i know where a nazel 2b has been sitting in weather fo over twenty years sacralidge i know would it still be able to get running? or is it so much scrap? The Nazel 2b is a good machine and if you can rebuild an engine you have the basic understanding of what to repair it back to. The parts are all big and heavy. I was looking at one that the hammer cylinder was completely frozen with rust as well as the valves. I have the skills to repair such a machine but the price needs to be low enough to justify all the work. If any of the parts move that is a big plus. The castings should have been well oiled while it was in use so oil should have soaked into the cast iron pores a little. It may not be as bad as it looks is all I am saying. I would try to turn the flywheel with a short prybar to see if the back end moves and remove the muffler and look at the front cylinder to see how bad it looks. That machine in good running shape is probably worth $12,000 and up. Weight of about 7500 lbs at scrap value makes it look good IF you can repair it. Offer them double the scrap value?? You need to be in love with the machine to do that though. Worst case is it becomes a parts machine- not melted down. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Oil the heck out of the thing before you use a crowbar or any other tools on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Oil the heck out of the thing before you use a crowbar or any other tools on it. You know just this past week I've had two different people tell me they saw a comparison on penetrating oils. Kroil has always been one of my favorites.. At the price of time it will get where it needs to go, and usually a touch of heat.... But a step better is suppose to be Acetone and ATF mixed 50/50. Suppose to be the best bar none.... Mix up a couple of gallons and pour it on... I've been wanting to mix some up, but haven't done it yet. Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Man, thats what I like about this project, and the way we can toss around ideas and information. You can take what you want and kind of invent the rest. This guy is going for it. Perfect? nope, but...When there's nothing to compare it to, its the best. Thanks for the photo's, they make (some) sense to a wannabe machinist. Thanks for the kind words! You know in the next couple of weeks, hopefully, we're going to get on the controls. (and I did say WE, you guys) That's a little confusing to say the least. I've been studying, but have only made a little progress. I want to try and draw the controls for the bull or the Coleman. "if I can draw it, I can make it"... Chime in Grant. :-)) Thanks again. AJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 You know just this past week I've had two different people tell me they saw a comparison on penetrating oils. Kroil has always been one of my favorites.. At the price of time it will get where it needs to go, and usually a touch of heat.... But a step better is suppose to be Acetone and ATF mixed 50/50. Suppose to be the best bar none.... Mix up a couple of gallons and pour it on... I've been wanting to mix some up, but haven't done it yet. Aj A word of caution when dealing with acetone. Acetone is an excellent solvent and it also is very good at carrying whatever has been dissolved into it right past your skin and into the surrounding tissue where it can be absorbed into your circulatory system and distributed throughout your body.If you`re going to use these types of solvents then please be sure you are using the proper precautions to include the correct types of gloves and respirator cartridges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 A word of caution when dealing with acetone. Acetone is an excellent solvent and it also is very good at carrying whatever has been dissolved into it right past your skin and into the surrounding tissue where it can be absorbed into your circulatory system and distributed throughout your body.If you`re going to use these types of solvents then please be sure you are using the proper precautions to include the correct types of gloves and respirator cartridges. Yep, common since can save a guy lot of problems down the road. You know there isn't much you can keep your hands in for a while without it getting into your skin. That darn kroil, and tap magic come to mind. It doesn't just wash off... Below... making small pieces out of big ones. When the price is right... got to go with what you can get. Later, Aj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Yep, common since can save a guy lot of problems down the road. You know there isn't much you can keep your hands in for a while without it getting into your skin. That darn kroil, and tap magic come to mind. It doesn't just wash off... Below... making small pieces out of big ones. When the price is right... got to go with what you can get. Later, Aj Aj Thats a pretty slick apperatice for your band saw, with the chain and cable. I have never seen anything like it. Did you make it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajclay Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Aj Thats a pretty slick apperatice for your band saw, with the chain and cable. I have never seen anything like it. Did you make it? Nope that's standard equipment for an old Doall Saw. My saw is a 1953 machine that I rebuilt a few years ago. I've bird-dogged about ever attachment that Doall made for it. Works like a champ! The chain goes down to a dead weight that pulls the material through the blade. It's adjustable along with the blade speed. Then all the operator has to do is steer it. That's 1.5 thick material, the blade is a 3/4 wide, 10tpi running at 150fpm. Speeds and Feeds... I buy blades off of e-bay at a deal, cut emm at the right length and then weld them together. Got to have the right blade for the metal alloy and thickness... Thanks, AJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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