Is it ridiculous to think this?

[Brasilikilt]

I work at a metal fab shop and am basically the lowest xxxx on the totem pole. I do the lowliest work there such as grinding, punching holes in plates and cleaning up after others. I get talked down to, make jack squat for a wage and am not held in very high regard.
Lots of people there have been fired, or quit and I feel my position there is a bit precarious.

I'm exploring the possibilities of paying my share of the bills with what capabilities I have here at home.

Is it completely asinine to think that a guy with the very basics (forge, anvil, hammers, wire feed welder)working alone in a tiny backyard shop could make an average of around $12-$15/hour profit consistently?

I was thinking of some things I could realistically do is to make parts for another larger company. Making tools for other blacksmiths or wood workers was another idea.

I also have some wood working equipment such as a table saw, drill press, lathe, a small belt sander and band saw, I was thinking that combining wood working and blacksmithing would allow me to be flexible with the kinds of stuff I could do.

I'm just throwing the idea out there for some feedback from those of you already operating your own shops.

I'm not looking to make a huge pile of money, just enough to maintain my familiy's current standard of living.

Any thoughts you guys might have be it for or against, I'm all ears.

Thanks

Iain

[jason0012]

I feel your pain on that job! I have worked in many such places. As long as I am treated ok its alright, the moment the boss decides that the employees are ripping him off it all goes to xxxx. A big reason for that is that there is a lot of stress that goes with running a business and more so with having employees. Its still no excuse to abuse those who do the grunt work in the shop. If you are only making $12-15 an hour it shouldn't be too hard to replace that income. You need to bring in about 2-3 times that to make it your take home income. It really depends on what sort of work you are doing and how much it costs you. It is somewhat harrowing relying on your home shop to pay the bills , but after a few years it will change the way you forever view employers and employment.

[chyancarrek]

Hey Iain,

What you're describing is pretty much exactly what I've been doing for the last 12 years - Right now it's tough because business has dropped way off but my secret for hanging on is the fact that I set everything up from the git-go to have the lowest possible overhead - I approached that by buying my home, shop and equipment outright - I have no mortgage/rent, no debt payments (loans/credit cards) and because I do very small scale work, I use 90% reclaimed materials which carry little to no cost and a minimum of consumables. Am I getting rich? Not even close, but my bills are payed, I'm not missing any meals (as evidenced by my expanding waistline) and have enough left over for a little fun.

My advice is to stick with your job for as long as you can stand it knowing it's just a means to an end and REALLY focus on the business side of what you want to do - it's not enough to come up with a product line and then hope to sell it.

I spent my first 4 years building my client list and honing my product line while working in a custom furniture shop. You really have to identify your market and then work at making that market aware of you - remember that you're entering into a biz that's predominantly supported by disposable income spending and there's not near as much of that out there as there used to be.

All that being said, can you do it? Sure - a case in point is a good friend who makes tongs for other smiths (Glen @ GS tongs) he's built his biz by making a strong product and being dedicated to the business side. While it's not as robust as it was, he's still making a good go of it.

There's all sorts of great folks here who can help you with more solid advice than I have to give - tap into them. Do lots of research and take some business courses to help you lock down that side of things - as long as you don't take a "ready, fire, aim" approach, you can make anything work out for yourself - it just comes down to lots of dedication and using lots of common sense.

Good luck - let us know how it goes!

[pkrankow]

You need 2-3 months living expenses minimum as a safety net before quitting your day job.
Phil

[Mills]

Good Advice. You are motivated to get into something for yourself and that is a worthy goal. Debt free and money in the bank are is the launch point you want to establish before full time. Don't leave somewhere you don't like, go somewhere you want to be and can commit to. As well tho is establishing a business attitude.

The one item that is making a huge improvement in my business this year is belonging to a business network group. Specifically BNI. The members there are actively listening to send business to me as I am for them. I have made several thousand from this association and have sent more than a thousand to others. It is more important to me in that I can talk to other business owners I know and have come to trust about questions in their area of expertise. And who will commiserate with me. It is a lot like iforgeiron in that regard.

Developing a relationship with other local businesses goes a long way to getting and sustaining a business venture. I have a year of experience with this and am now ready to endorse this setting as a very good idea for startup and young businesses. may not be so beneficial to established businesses.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Where are you located? Would moving improve your situation?

Is there another business that you can go work for that is better?

Whatever you do, don't cut the paycheck loose before you have a steady replacement for that income.

Starting a business; I paid as I went, and had no loans/leases/or debt in equipment. Auctions,auctions,and more auctions for my lathes/mills/surface grinders/welders, etc. If you can't pay cash, you can't afford it at that time. This worked for me,as when we were forced to close up we owed NOBODY any money.

See if you have Dave Ramsey on a local AM radio station, he also has a website. He gives good financial advice. It may not be what you WANT to hear, but it is what is BEST for you.

You will need a large cash cushion to get started. More than 6 months in my opinion. If things do not go as planned, or you have an emergency come up, how fast can you get another job before the money runs out? As money comes in you need to set a portion aside for taxes, and other expenses. Have all debts except the house paid off before starting a business. When things go bad they can snowball very fast.

$15 per hr is roughly $30K a year (2,080 hrs in a work year) and is probably doable smithing, but can you do something else and make more? My friend was clearing $8-$10k a month doing landscaping before she got divorced. Cintas uniform services (a nation wide company)starts trainees here at $14.50, 4 day week, 401K, full benefits, and commissions. The gal who came by my last shop in Vegas was making $62K a year.

Can you invest in yourself with some new training,classes, or certifications to move up the ladder?

The toughest part will be when you cut that paycheck loose, and you realize that is is all on you now to bring in that money. It can be worth the risk. My happiest times working were when I was working for myself. I don't care how much you are getting paid. If you aren't happy, it isn't worth it.

[Tim McCoy]

Iain,

Thus far the advice has been great. Having owned several businesses of my own I would agree that you have at least three - six months cash on hand before you start. Continue living within your means and avoid debt any way you can. Always lead with revenue ... make money from the start and only spend your profit . . . NO DEBT! As has been suggested, find a niche; forging tools, carpenter tools, eating utensils ... whatever and be the absolute best you can at producing those. Several of the other members here have discussed profit/charging and effective production speed/rate in other threads.

In regards to your current postion - whatever it is, learn from it! Find out how they profit, how do they save on material and manpower, what do they do wrong, especially that! Write it all down and write out what you want to do. Be honest with yourself about what it takes to eat. Build your budget on the reality of what you are doing now. Always include a 10-15% contingency factor for the times that things go wrong (and they will).

The greatest freedom we have today is that of being your own boss. With that freedom comes the responsibility to be real with your self about knowing that you and only you make it work ... more hours than you ever thought, more frustration, more sleepless nights and more joy! Get to it and when you get out on your own, remember that even if you fail, you will have succeeded! It is about the trip and the planning and the small successes not the end product. No one makes you start a fire and create something. You decide to do it and when it is finished you and only you will know the real cost of it in personal terms. Good luck!

Tim

[pkrankow]

Some good points, get some training. This may help you in you current job even, but get your welding ticket. Some nice basic structural welding like mig (FCAW or GMAW) or stick (SMAW) in all poses and positions. If you are in business you will need these skills anyways, else you can't do an install and sign off on your work.

It also opens other job opportunities if having an employer is more in line with family living. (yes going your own full time requires ever person to be supportive. Saw a friend loose his house and marriage over working for himself or for an employer.)

Phil

[fat pete]

Make a plan and work that plan. I dont care what your buisness is its like anyhting else you need a map ....you need to know where you are going ..... i believe with the right networking and lottsa time you could sneak a reasonable living at blacksmithing...tools hardware...some art...and the right places to sell it...why not

I havent worked for anyone for a long time...made my own way...not easy but you can make it work

[Dragons lair]

Just a note here. The question was can he make $12-15 PROFIT. My shop is dormant at the moment. That $600 a mounth overhead still comes due every mounth.
Can it be done? Sure ya just need to add in the overhead. A few steady outlets are what ya need.
Ken

[son_of_bluegrass]

I am trying to do exactly that right now. My last boss fired me because I wouldn't put quantity over quality (trim carpentry, most houses built today are built fast and so long and it will last the warranty period it is good enough). A few years ago Dad died and I move states and back in with Mom to help her out around the house so I have very little in the way of living expenses. I spent several months creating inventory. This last weekend I went to my first fair. I made one sale and spent more for the entry fee than I made.

All that being said, I know people who, after several years, have made it work. That means you need to be able to pay bills someway for a few years until you get established. I also see a lot of low quality wares that sell out fast. Since I won't put out something that poorly made I also have to educate consumers on how to spot quality and why my stuff has to be more expensive than theirs. And of course I have to do that with out insulting their work or leave myself open to legal problems.

ron

[dablacksmith]

can it be done ? yes can you do it? that is the hard one... in a lot of ways it depends on your ability to sell more than your metalworking skills... ive met a lot of smiths over the years and some can gow and make good money (at it looks like good money from the outside) and others go under.. also it depends on your spouse and family. some of the best smiths have a good spouse to back them up bolth emotionally and financeialy.it can be brutal if your the only bread winner and the customer starts waffeling about what they want and ask "can you make it a little cheaper "ie 10cents on the dollar cause they can tell your hurting...ide start by building a small inventory with what you can make now ... do a few shows on your days off get your feet wet ... see if this life is for you (its not for everybody).and like others have said figureing prices you need to take into account a lot of things most dont think of . figure for things like shop rental (your not doing it now but you might in the future ) insurence (you SHOULD do that now especially if its your only income) and things like sick days vacations ect . lotsa good advice here wish i had someone to explain it to me when i started.good luck!

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Sit down and write down all of your household expenses, and all of you business expenses to see what you have to make to stay afloat. Keep the business totally separate from the household. You start mixing them, and you can get yourself into trouble. The shop has to pull its own weight.

Examples of shop expenses; power, fuel, consumables, insurance (product liability,health,etc),travel, material, business license,resale number, permits, phone, advertising-business cards, show fees / expenses, phone(remember to keep business separate from home), etc.

Check into what is needed when selling in different counties/states when selling at shows.

[Brasilikilt]

Hey everyone

Sorry to take so long to write back, I haven't been feeling too well and have been much crashing like a kamikaze into bed shortly after I get home from work.

Anyways, here I am now, and I have to thank all of you for all the responses. It's pretty obvious that you guys put a lot of time and thought into them.........There's definitely a lot of valid points for me to consider.

Just so you all know....I'm not going to quit my job and jump into this thing with both feet....That would be pretty reckless and foolhardy...It's a much safer bet to keep my current job, and use this time to get myself known, and build up equipment, product, raw materials and get to a spot where I feel I could spring into action and start producing on a larger scale....If things go well for my venture, I might think about getting a part time job somewhere to allow more time in the shop.

I currently have a few knife commissions I'm finishing up, and hopefully that will be enough to get some welding supplies, and build a separate forging area onto the existing shed.

I have to make stuff and get feedback from people to figure out what would sell well.....Is it going to be entirely blacksmith made items, or am I going to incorporate wood and leather working into the mix? I heard my Blacksmith instructor say that for smaller items, you don't want to spend much more than an hour from start to finish.

One big thing I have working in my favor is where I live- Portland Oregon. People here are big on, bicycles, beer, art and supporting local businesses....especially if they are eco-friendly. Whatever I make will likely sell a lot better if it's made using reclaimed materials. I already had someone asking me about welding together some bike racks....I kicked myself for not having a card to give them!

One thing I was thinking is pretty much what DABlacksmith suggested is to spend time building up a supply of products to sell at events. Try living the life for a little bit to see if I feel I could do it, and if I could make it economically viable.
I'm already known somewhat within the local rendezvous scene as a guy who builds and sells powder horns, so my name and products are already out there to a limited extent.

I totally hear you guys when you mention not having any debt!!! It's going to be hard enough getting this venture to float on it's own without having extra bills to pay. For now I figure I sell something and put the proceeds back into the shop for supplies, or to maybe upgrade an existing tool...Better yet it would be good to put a part of the profits into a separate bank account set up especially for the smithy, and start keeping records of what's coming in, what's going out and what's left over when everything is said and done.

As for training....I did complete a welders certification training course and got good grades throughout the year.....I still am NOT a good stick welder, but did fairly well with GMAW and got my certification with FCAW.
I have a wire feed welder here at home...I still need to get a bottle of gas and wire for it :-)

Anyways.....I have to get to bed now, but I appreciate all the advice that has been given.
I will write more as time allows.

Thanks again

Iain

[Jeff Bly]

Starting a business; I paid as I went, and had no loans/leases/or debt in equipment. Auctions,auctions,and more auctions for my lathes/mills/surface grinders/welders, etc. If you can't pay cash, you can't afford it at that time. This worked for me,as when we were forced to close up we owed NOBODY any money.

See if you have Dave Ramsey on a local AM radio station, he also has a website. He gives good financial advice. It may not be what you WANT to hear, but it is what is BEST for you.

Where and how do you find these auctions? IS Dave Ramsey a Nationally Syndicated radio show?

[Willis]

Take into account that right now you have only one boss, as soon as you start out on your own, evey customer you take on is your boss until you get to the point where you can pick and choose your customers. How many years will that take?
If you make even one person angry for whatever reason imagined or not, the word will spread, just like it will spread should you prove to be 'one of the best'
The hardest thing to gain and the easiest to lose is your credibility.
All of the above being said, go for it. You have only one life to live and must live it according to your principles and standards.

[RingingAnvil]

Iain, I started my Blacksmith shop several years ago in my garage with a very basic setup; coal forge, anvil, an old miller thunderbolt, porta-band, and a few hand tools. It was difficult in the begining - worked my head off for pennies (my savings saved me !!!!!! during that time). It was over a year before I started really getting noticed and even longer before I started making decent money but looking back it was all worth it. I now am able to be selective when it comes to projects/clients and bring in 50-70 an hour for the shop. I deciced to remain poor personally in order to invest in the buisness. Recently I purchased a 100# Little Giant (used to be a seemingly impossible dream to have one) and only then did I really feel like it was all going to work. When people ask me what I do for a living I beam with pride. I am making it, hell yes, and you can to! What a great bunch of advice and experience the members of this site gave. It help me to hear all that even now. All the best! Work hard, be honest, be thrifty, don't borrow money (just my opinion), and stay the course!

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Yes The Dave Ramsey Show is a nationally syndicated radio show, and he also has a website.

As to the auctions. They were listed in the San Francisco papers, as well as the Sacramento papers, so check your big city papers. After you register at the auction they will start sending you notices for the next sales coming up. Just about all of my equipment came from auctions held by Lloyd Ashman. I watched him go from a regular working stiff to a multimillionaire in about 15 years by selling machine shop equipment. Like back during the gold rush. The miners didn't get rich, but the guys selling the equipment did. One example that I remember was in a large shop that went under. He sold a dual palletized Toyoda milling center in less than 1 minute for $175,000. He got a 10% for each sale, so he made $17,500 in less than 1 minute,and there were many more machines in that shop. He got a good name with the buyers, and sellers due to his customer service, and it has paid off for him handsomely. Last I heard he had made over $30,000,000 since he started charging a buyers premium. Not too shabby for a job that he shows up at 11am, and is usually done by 2-3pm depending on the size of the shop. Of course he has plenty of help, and expenses that you don't see, but even with all that he is still doing great.

There are a number of used equipment dealers around the country, and some folks prefer going that route than hitting auctions. I liked the auctions myself, as they were also a social event for me. Talking with other shop owners, and dealers
, I was able to get a lot of good information.

[Brasilikilt]

Hey all

It's funny that this topic has seen recent activity. Time for blacksmithing has been non-existent since the baby arrived a month ago.
With a new baby comes the fact that as working parents we need to pay much more on daycare for 2 children now.
My mind got going, and I figured if I could make a few knives and other trinkets a month, that would add a few hundred bucks to the family coffers.

When the weather is good, I have to clean something in the house, and help with the kids....When I have a little time to do hammering, it's dark and/or raining.

It's happened more than a few times, it's taken me a half hour to get soaking wet coal going and another half hour to dry my anvil, brush the rust off the face, heat a chunk of iron plate a few times to warm the face up...and then it starts raining again!!!

Enough is enough......I'm going to Home Depot this morning to buy some corrugated tin roofing, and keep my eyes open on Craig's list and the local reclaimed building materials yard for any usable lumber.

The next step is to construct a gas forge that's big enough to heat 2 or 3 projects at once and hopefully be reasonably fuel efficient.

Hopefully the gas forge will allow more efficient use of my time, while the coal forge will still be useful for forge-welding billets for blades.

The welder will have to come next....I've had a Miller 225 v. CV/DC machine in my garage for about 2 years...I haven't been able to use it for lack of a bottle of shield gas and mig wire.

With a working welder....constructing my own hardy tools, jigs and other gear will be much easier.

Next is some kind of power hammer....I already have an electric 1.5 hp motor scavenged off a tread mill....I suspect that this will work for a home-built hammer for a while until I find something better.

This ball gets rolling as soon as I can get my butt out of this computer chair and go to Home depot to pick up the roofing to get my forge and anvil out of the rain :-)

Thanks and take care everyone

As always your feedback is appreciated

[Fosterob]

Our local Home Depot has lazy employees and they throw away a good amount of decent stuff. I knew a contractor who was there a few times a week and would always check out back where the trash cans were and "cleaned up" for them when there were things he wanted. Long 2x4's dozen at a time come to mind. also misc plywood.... The other place I get wood cheap is the local lumber yard, they have a cull pile they put the wood that is warped or otherwise not going to sell as first quality- they sell it for cheap, I tell them I am making shipping pallets and want cheap wood.
Rob

[ThomasPowers]

You might check with a roofer about tear-offs for hail damaged steel roofing. My 20x30 "dirty shop" extension is made from free roofing after a major hail storm out here. Even better the roof is actually un-touched as it was overage from doing a major job---re-roofing the local schools and so it's high quality and I don't quibble about some mis painted sheets---they go on the side *away* from the house. The walls are a friends roof that was replaced. I even managed to scrounge up a couple of used roll up doors for the front of it.

So my shop is 4 shades of blue though transitions are mainly hidden from the house view...

The uprights, pole barn type, are utility poles the local electrical coop gave me free. See a theme here? I bought the steel trusses off of craigs list and actually *paid* for new purlins to tie everything together. (I also bought two fiberglass panels for skylights meaning in daytime I need no artificial light source!)

[Sam Thompson]

The welder will have to come next....I've had a Miller 225 v. CV/DC machine in my garage for about 2 years...I haven't been able to use it for lack of a bottle of shield gas and mig wire.

With a working welder....constructing my own hardy tools, jigs and other gear will be much easier.

If your shed is leaky or the environment is damp a stick welder will be a better bet. Mig wire rusts easily and will block the torch liner very quickly. Unless you plan on doing a lot of fabrication it's far easier to keep a box of rods in the house than it is to take the wire out of the machine every night.
Remember that there are two types of overheads: fixed (those that you have to pay whether you work or not) and variable (the costs of actually doing the work). You need to divide the fixed weekly costs by the number of hours that you actually charge for (30 out of a 45hr week is good going) and add this to your labour rate, along with depreciation and profit (don't confuse profit with wages).