straw ash flux

[jason0012]

I have read and seen some photos of welding with straw ash. I don't think I have heard of anyone actually using ash. I was wondering have any of you tried this. How is the straw prepared and then aplied?

[Rich Hale]

I have not read that and do not have any experience with it. I suspect you are new to this and the very best advice I can give is to do a lot of reading. The tid bits you get in this forum are not a substitute for getting basic books and reading them several times.
For flux. get some 20 mule team borax and use as the books say. It just cannot be any easier than that. And Have fun

[beatamax]

Actually Japanese swordsmiths use rice straw ash both in the manufacture of the steel to make swords and while forging. Perhaps you should take your own advice before you put someone down.

Start here

http://www.forging.o...paneseSword.pdf
http://www.facebook....es/124863797394

[Glenn]

Are you suggesting that rice straw ash as a flux is easier to use and more forgiving than borax?

Borax is usually available in the laundry section of the store(s). Where do we obtain rice straw in order to convert it to ash so we can try it as a flux. Which variety of rice straw work best? How much ash does the 3 foot x 3 foot x 5 foot bail of rice straw make?

Please consider posting your article A question of Cleanliness (Fluxes) in a post on this site for reference. It explains how to make the rice straw ash, and how to use green glass as a flux.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

I have to admit that I for one do not see anywhere in the pdf article submitted about making Japanese swords, any mention of straw ash as a flux. As part of a way to prevent decarburization yes, but not as a flux. As far as the facebook article is concerned that is the very first time I have ever heard of using rice straw, or any straw as a flux, and grass as a flux too. After reading 20 odd books, researching for over a year and studying continuously, I would have seen that....hmmm.

[beatamax]

I wasn't suggesting anything other than not to dismiss things out of hand just because you haven't heard of it before, especially if you put someone down in the process.

I dont care what you use for flux obviously the easiest and cheapest available is the way to go.

"I have to admit that I for one do not see anywhere in the pdf article submitted about making Japanese swords, any mention of straw ash as a flux. As part of a way to prevent decarburization yes, but not as a flux. As far as the facebook article is concerned that is the very first time I have ever heard of using rice straw, or any straw as a flux, and grass as a flux too. After reading 20 odd books, researching for over a year and studying continuously, I would have seen that....hmmm."

"Flux is any compound used to prevent oxidation of the welding surface and aid in removing impurities" (http://www.appaltree.net/aba/terms.htm). From the pdf I linked to "This step dramatically reduces the oxidisation and decarburization of the metal during heating" so what else was the straw ash doing other than being a flux. Perhaps you should tell the Japanese that they cant make swords because they dont use use 20 mule team borax. Expand your minds dont just dismiss out of hand what you dont know, reading 20 odd books doesn't come close to making you an expert especially as you didn't read the swordmaking pdf correctly, the obvious conclusion is that you didn't read the right twenty books to find out that you can use straw as a flux, or is nothing else a fact unless its been in one of the twenty books you've read.

"Please consider posting your article A question of Cleanliness (Fluxes) in a post on this site for reference. It explains how to make the rice straw ash, and how to use green glass as a flux."

Its not my article the two links were found after 30seconds of googling because I remembered reading that straw ash was used in the traditional production of Japanese Swords.

[jason0012]

I have asked about this in numerous forums before. I have never encountered anyone with any experience in the subject. Just to help anyone who has missed any reference to straw ash as flux, Jim Hrisoulas made reference to the practice in "The complete blade smith". Most texts on Japanese forging processes will make cursory or passing reference to the rice straw ash flux. Not all such descriptions are written by smiths and sometimes the authors seem baffled by the very procedure they describe. I have seen photos of it being used in nearly 1/2" layers applied with a spatula or as a liquid bath. Both look very questionable to me, though must obviously work. I had hoped that the forum might have someone familiar with the process present, or someone who had actually studied Japanese forging. I am rather shocked that there are smiths who react so negatively to such an inquiry. Why does this question offend so? And why would one assume I don't know about borax? I wasn't asking how to make a weld but rather how welding with straw ash would be acomplished.

[beatamax]

You could look at this, there are a few academics mentioned that might be worth looking up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSHztk9Bw_I

These clips shows the process and the use of the ash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwQqtf86qOc

[pkrankow]

I have been looking up information on ash composition for another thread, rice and wheat straw contain a high amount of silica (Si) when burned at high heat concentrate these compounds as SiO2. This gives the ash a course grain, and makes the ash able to melt and wet the metal surface.

Phil

The other thread
http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/14670-homemade-flux/

some data
http://www.trmiles.com/alkali/alkali.htm
\=> http://www.trmiles.com/alkali/fuelsc7.html

[Glenn]

I wasn't suggesting anything other than not to dismiss things out of hand just because you haven't heard of it before, especially if you put someone down in the process.

The post by Rich Hale

I have not read that and do not have any experience with it. I suspect you are new to this and the very best advice I can give is to do a lot of reading. The tid bits you get in this forum are not a substitute for getting basic books and reading them several times.
For flux. get some 20 mule team borax and use as the books say. It just cannot be any easier than that. And Have fun

Up front Rich says he has not read about using rice straw ash as a flux. He then proceeds to give the best advice he can to what he suspects is someone new to the subject. I do not read anything in his post that is a put down. I do read it as not depending on IForgeIron for all the information available on a subject and to progress on to reading books written on the subject.

I dont care what you use for flux obviously the easiest and cheapest available is the way to go.

Rich said the same thing.

Perhaps you should tell the Japanese that they cant make swords because they dont use use 20 mule team borax.

I would respectfully suggest to anyone to try all methods available, then choose the one that works the best for them.

Expand your minds dont just dismiss out of hand what you dont know, reading 20 odd books doesn't come close to making you an expert especially as you didn't read the swordmaking pdf correctly, the obvious conclusion is that you didn't read the right twenty books to find out that you can use straw as a flux, or is nothing else a fact unless its been in one of the twenty books you've read.

Can you please suggest the right 20 books? This would be very helpful to those wishing to learn more on the subject.

Its not my article the two links were found after 30seconds of googling because I remembered reading that straw ash was used in the traditional production of Japanese Swords.

When I used google I got about 6,970 hits for rice straw ash flux. The facebook reference was the #1 and #6 hit.

Hit #8 yields the following information

Rice Straw Ash
Chemistry %
CaO2.74 MgO1.49 K2O3.29 Na2O0.56 P2O51.29 Al2O310.78 SiO277.26 Fe2O30.53 MnO0.70
Volatiles %
SO31.35
I did spend more than 30 second browsing the results of the search. Changing the key words would yield different results and more information. Knowing which reference to read would certainly speed things up.

[Glenn]

Thank you for the additional references. This is what makes discussions like this one so valuable. We can go to the source material, read, and them make our own decisions on how to proceed with the process.

[beatamax]

The post by Rich Hale

Up front Rich says he has not read about using rice straw ash as a flux. He then proceeds to give the best advice he can to what he suspects is someone new to the subject. I do not read anything in his post that is a put down. I do read it as not depending on IForgeIron for all the information available on a subject and to progress on to reading books written on the subject.

Exactly, the put down was the assumption that because Rich had no knowledge of the subject that jason0012 must be a beginner and therefore asking a stupid question because any experienced blacksmith knows that borax is the only flux!

Can you please suggest the right 20 books? This would be very helpful to those wishing to learn more on the subject.

I wouldn't restrict you to just books or just 20 I would recomend trying to read, talk, ask, listen and learn as much as you can.

When I used google I got about 6,970 hits for rice straw ash flux. The facebook reference was the #1 and #6 hit.

Hit #8 yields the following information

Exactly, easy isn't it and while I dont trust everything I read on the internet there was enough information to suggest that the use of straw ash as a flux is possible and has been used extensively with what cannot be argued considerable success.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

I didn't dismiss anything out of hand, I just said I hadn't heard of it. I also searched the pdf article for the word flux,it is never mentioned, and re-read it. I doesn't say what you seem to think it says...At least not to me it doesn't. Maybe its a matter of semantics. I never once claimed to be an expert. Just shared my experience.

[Glenn]

Can you please suggest the right 20 books? This would be very helpful to those wishing to learn more on the subject.
I wouldn't restrict you to just books or just 20 I would recomend trying to read, talk, ask, listen and learn as much as you can.

I appreciate you not restricting me, so could you suggest some of the right books so we can get started?

[jason0012]

"The complete blade smith" by Jim Hrisoulas, "The craft of the Japanese sword " by ...well the name escapes me at the moment, but included some good photos of the process.
I was really hoping someone here had tried this. I am really baffled by the strongly negative response this subject received. I have seen some pretty absurd ideas discussed by smiths over the years, but don't see why experiments with a flux that has been used for over a thousand years should elicit such venom. I will simply explore this on my own and quit making such waves!

[ThomasPowers]

The use of ash for flux has been experimented with by the neo-tribal smiths as I reported.

[Glenn]

Jason, polite discussions are good, polite discussions with references are better. Only 18 more books to go (grin).

Have you tried the mud wasp nest material as a flux?
Or the UK method of NOT using flux when forge welding?
And I am sure there are many other flux materials that have been used.

[Feukair]

I'll throw in a few of my thoughts... I know of this process being described as clay ash flux and straw ash flux. I think that when pursuing traditional japanese swordsmithing practices you have to leave a little room for loose terminology. The term "clay ash flux" or "straw ash flux" is as much the name of the process as it is specifically the flux being used. It's a process of rolling the hot billet in ashes from already burnt straw, then coating it in a slurry of powdered clay and water. I've had success simply buying terra cotta modeling clay, slicing it into strips that you can lay in the sun to dry out for a while then grind into a powder, this method was taught in a class I took. More recently I've purchased some clay called "redart" which is simply an already powdered mix of terra cotta-ish clay. Mix the powder with water using a wisk until when you dip your finger in the mix and remove it you can see the clay coating your finger so that your finger print is not visible. There's not much specific science here, I mean when when at one end of the spectrum you've got people successfully forge welding with no flux, and at the other end some forge welding with anhydrous borax and commercial fluxes, and in the middle people slopping clay mud on the billet, there's not going to be much of a noticeable difference in success just because you don't have the straw ash flux exactly right.

In this case the clay is doing more fluxing than the straw ash. I don't think you've have much of a good time using just straw ash as it will mostly flake and burn off the steel before it could ever perform any "fluxing", but you could get away with the clay slurry only and no straw ash. The clay slurry melts onto the steel and forms a kind of oozy glassy glaze. The link that beatamax posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n_XpjOw0rA is actually a very good example of a smith performing the straw ash flux process.

The clay slurry and ash method works for me, and it's a heck of alot of fun and personally satisfying to play at doing it the same way the japanese smiths do.

[Rich Hale]

Maybe it is time for me to give my side of this item I am taking a whuppin on: It was not meant to be a put down at all, it was the best thing I had to say about a question and I thought it would be instructional.

I suppose the thing that bothers me the most is that the person that posed the question is not taking me to task it is another person. That person has said many times that I am causing trouble and mentions me by name. And the answer I gave was not to a question he posed at all.

If the person starting this thread is offended I will say right now and again, it was not meant as a put down to you or your abilities. If that does satisfy you and if you are still not pleased with how I answered pleasse notify and administrator and he will make sure I am dealt with.

For the person that keeps bringing my name up I can only ask that you let this go and lets move on.

[basher]

If you want to find information on this method I would suggest looking (and or asking)on Don Foggs Bladesmiths forum .

I Have seen Demonstrations of clay and paper welding done by Ric furrer and Rick barret . And know Nikko Hynninen works his Tamahagane down using straw ash with great results .

I have up untill recently used Borax as a fluxing agent when working down my own bloomery steel , however Borax has limitations of upper working temperature and other fluxing agents work better at the sparkling white heat that Tamahagane is worked .Borax also alters the "Hada" of tamahagane and gives whitish lines at the weld margins .I had a Japanese trained (Czechoslovakian)Sword smith ask if I was using borax on a Tamahagane blade . He said " Borax Bad" (said my steel was OK though )

People get all het up when it comes to welding fluxes ,or not using them.

You can weld wrought iron and mild steel without any flux , it easy peasy . Both these materials are stable at the temperqature that the iron oxide melts on its own , you dont need flux. (wrought iron has its own flux in the silicate strands ).....However silver sand works well as does ball clay as does..... ?????

The UK method of welding steel without flux is in my opinion ignorance , these are the same people who tell you you cant weld in a gas forge . Sure you can get it to weld if you get it hot enough , in the process you trash the steel. Britain has a great Heritage of blacksmithing but a large ignorance when it comes to bladesmithing , this is starting to change .

Rice straw and clay and paper are all doing similar jobs to borax :-

acting as a physical barrier to oxygen

helping to reduce the temperature that iron oxide melts at and thus expel it during the forge weld.

Some fluxes perform other tasks by having other ingredients .

Powdered cast iron melts at a lower temp and coats the steel reducing its welding temperature at the surface and potentialy acting as a brazing agent .

Sal ammoniac acts as an agrassive deoxidising agent and helps with tenacious oxides like chrome .

I think one of the reasons for using rice straw ash is that it has available carbon and acts as a sacrificial carbon source, thus preventing too much carbon loss from the steel when welding at high heat.

so as I see it there is no "one size fits all" flux .

They is different...... Just like tamahagane is different from 1080 is different from wrought iron is different from 440C is different from mild steel ......Simples!

[Steve Sells]

Well said basher, thank you for have a calm and cool reply to this. It started as a simple question asked, and was given a simple answer. Sad it had to get blown out of proportion by one voice.

I agree about Ash how works, I also agree that when we are stating out, make things as simple and easy as possible to reduce the chances of failure. We can get fancy and complex later if we wish, but to make it hard to get materials, or results for a person just starting a new technique, is asking for problems.

[JPH]

Howdy:

Now I ain't nothing more than an old man working out of his back yard..the use of ash/paper/clay really is nothing more, basically... than what is being done now with a "can" and doing all that mosaic pattern welding.

The ash/clay will simply form an airtight "seal" encasing the material thereby reducing scale and other problems from arising. All I know is I can weld SS to HC steels without putting them in a can and have been doing so for many, many years...Nothing new there...

The overall tone of this thread is getting a bit testy and I for one would like to keep things civil and "fiendly like" so let's all just lighten up a notch or two....

JPH

[Danocon]

Hello guys,

This forum is great for easing back into things. Here is what I know on the subject. Not definitive mind you just what I observed and what I believe were the answers to my questions.

The Japanese smiths I worked with used NO FLUX in the tamahagane. I suppose it has a high silica content like wrought iron so there is less of a need for flux. They did use a liberal amount of straw ash and clay but as far as I can tell only, as Jim said, to reduce oxidation.

In the initial weld when all the pieces were piled on a flat plate welded to handle it was wrapped tightly in paper, a clay slurry was ladled over it and straw ash sprinkled liberally over that. It was then very carefully placed in the fire and held there as it was brought up to welding heat then carefully hammered.

Once the billet was solid they were constantly rolling it in the ash and less often ladling the slurry over it and before every weld the surfaces were water hammed to blast the scale off the surface.

When welding the modern day steel handle to the tamahagane plate I did see what looked like anhydrous borax make an appearance. But I never saw any kind of foreign material go between the welds. I worked with two different smiths for a grand total of 4 weeks. So, I can safely say I was not exposed to every trick they had.

Dan

[jason0012]

Thanks for posting some real answers. I figured surely someone here would know a thing or two about this. I think I am following what is being said . But I do have some questions. So the ash and clay form a sort of "can" to contain the weld? I expected some fluxing reaction as the ash is alkaline and should reach a liquid state. I know from experience that clay will melt into a glassy vitrious substance if it reaches a high enough temp. (I have melted firebricks before) How is slurry applied to hot steel?

[Danocon]

How is slurry applied to hot steel?

Jason,

The billet is rolled in ash then simply held over the bucket of slurry where the clay is ladled over it, then rolled in the ash again.