Questions about tempering/quenching

[Akad]

Ok, first and foremost you should probably know that I'm working with leaf-springs as my metal, and I have a small gas forge. I'm making knives, daggers, and short swords.

Question #1: Where do I get oil for quenching? I know using water as a quenching medium is bad for the steel, so I should use olive/canola oil right?So where should I look to get oil in large quantites, and how much would it cost?

Question #2: I know that tempering something well requires much experience and trial and error. What guidelines are there that I should use while attempting to temper the steel as far as color, and time in the tank go?

Question #3: You need to harden the steel before you temper it correct? If so, I ask Q #2 for this process as well.

Question #4: What kind of steel are leaf-springs made of? I know it's not the best, but it's ok, and readily available.

I've tried to temper a sword before, but the results were WAY less than satisfactory (It shattered... but it was kind of cool though) so I have not tried to temper a sword ever since, (I just leave them annealed) and will start practicing for my blades when I learn proper tempering techniques.

thanks to all those that help me out.




(Please do not comment about how I shouldn't try to make these items. With all due respect to master craftsmen and others with experience, I've made a some very effective blades without formal instruction... nothing spectacular, but that's what I'm trying to work towards, so it wouldn't make sense to waste time making nails and pry bars; just as a person trying to make a meatloaf doesn't practice by making cupcakes. Thank you.)

[Rob Browne]

Q1 - From the supermarket. Just buy a few large containers of canola oil and you are away.

Q2 - Hardening a leaf spring I would heat to non-magnetic then let is soak there for a couple of minutes to make sure its hot right through then quench it in the oil. No real blade experience here, I tend to harden and temper picks and crowbars but the principal should be the same.

Q3 - Tempering is a real experiment. Try letting the heat run to blue on the back of the blade to get it soft and a bit springy. The edge could be done about straw as a start. Give that a go then test the blade. If its too soft then re-harden and try again at a lower temper temperature. If too hard re-temper at a higher temperature. Make sure you record your technique and results for each sample so you have a reference and not rely on memory.

Q4 - Unknown would be the real answer. Each manufacturer would specify the properties of the metal they want to the supplier so a range of steels are supplied. That is why you test each bit as a new unknown steel before spending lots of time on a blade/project.

Good luck and remember, if you use free scrap steel to test each bit and if you are going to spend lots of time on a piece consider buying a piece of known steel for a better/more reliable outcome.

[forgemaster]

Spring steel I would harden from 850 deg in oil, you can temper to standard spring hardness using the greasy stick method, (approx 480 to 520 deg C), we use spotted gum hammer handles, for you yanks hickory is the best by far. Spring steel is fairly forgiving.
Cheers
Phil

[Hill]

Heat up a block of stock that's a bit bigger than the knife, shortsword, etc and use the heat from the block to do the tempering. Make sure the block is thick and wide enough to hold the heat until you get the temper you want on the blade. Much more control that way. Lay the blade on the back-edge/spine against the heated block and let the temper run to the blade edge.

[Ted T]

Zanzetuken,
Welcome to I forge Iron
You have asked some very basic, but very important questions that a blacksmith/ bladesmith needs to know.
You have also had some very caring people respond with some very thoughtful answers which your questions deserve.

Although, I know that you did not want any one to comment about what you are implying is acceptable when you said:

“(Please do not comment about how I shouldn't try to make these items. With all due respect to master craftsmen and others with experience, I've made a some very effective blades without formal instruction... nothing spectacular, but that's what I'm trying to work towards, so it wouldn't make sense to waste time making nails and pry bars; just as a person trying to make a meatloaf doesn't practice by making cupcakes. Thank you.)”

But we are not cooking cupcakes or meatloaf here and there is no comparing the basics of learning the blacksmithing craft with the skills of cooking.
We here at I Forge Iron have a responsibility to not allow anyone to think that there is a shortcut to achieving skill.
Safety issues are real and are always a present issue that accompanies each and every process in the blacksmithing craft. There are no short cuts to safety!
The reason I point this out is because I would not want another person who is just starting out in the blacksmithing or blade smithing craft to read what you have said and get the idea that they can jump from kindergarten right into collage without paying the price of learning the basic skills which includes all safety issues involved with each and every process.

There is a skill path that needs to be followed in order for each process to be fully understood. That process takes time, effort, and what ever costs are involved to reach to higher levels of skill.

I do not question you when you say that “ I've made a some very effective blades without formal instruction”.
It just may be that not everybody has the natural skills as you do.

I suggest that you also search the forum in order to help you find the answers that you are searching for.
First thing you know, we will be asking you questions!

I wish you the very best in your endeavor as a blade smith!
Ted Throckmorton

[Hill]

Ted, your response to the posters questions is the reason this forum ****. People ask questions to get information, not a preaching. Asking a question on these forums is like being on the **** Oprah show. Why is it so hard to for people that are new to the craft, to get a legitimate response to questions that they feel are important enough to ask on here? All I've saw as far as responses is "Do a search!!"..."Look in the archives!" or whatever it may be. Have you tried narrowing down information from all those threads? When was the last time all that was organized into something useful? It just burns me up that someone who has an interest cannot get on this forum and ask a question and find an answer instead of some disclaimer-type response that has nothing to do with the topic asked about. This is what discourages, not EN-courages others to have interest in Blacksmithing. Are there those on this forum that don't want to see others get into the craft and stay with the hobby or even make a business out of it? Is it just because that a person isn't a founding member of ABANA or have pictures of hammer-ins dated from the late 1970's? Is there forum trolls that sit back and just wait for an opportunity to give the "disclaimer speech"?? Why is it so hard to just answer a simple set of questions? The poster doesn't have a legitimate question? The poster doesn't deserve answers because maybe he's new to the craft?

Edited August 14, 2009 by mod07
rude and language violation

[Charlotte]

Question #2: I know that tempering something well requires much experience and trial and error. What guidelines are there that I should use while attempting to temper the steel as far as color, and time in the tank go?

The basic technique when dealing with an unknown steel that you would like to harden and temper is as follows.

Forge a piece roughly 1/4 inch thick and approx 3/8 inch wide. Heat it to a litte above non magnetic and let it air cool. This should normalize the piece.
Score with a dull chisel one inch segments down the length.
Heat it to non magnetic and quench in you medium of choice.
Polish the piece with sand paper or a grinder..
Run the colors with one end in the fire and cool when the very end in the fire goes gray.

Hammer test to see were the steel breaks. The next to last is your tempering color.

You may want to repeat this several times until you find and hardening color and a tempering color that produces consistent results.

Incidentaly old leaf spring was almost always 5160. Today some of the manufacturers are using lighter stronger alloys that rely on special heat treatments.

There are several introductry black smith books that go into better detail on dealing with mystery steels. Some of them are cited is the blue print lessons.

[Akad]

As much as I appreciate all input and advice, it is true that I do not like to be preached to, hence the last paragraph of my post. I thank you for your response, but I like to have my questions answered, rather than my experience critiqued. I have received more than enough criticism on safety and technique to know not to do anything incredibly stupid. I have learned "when in doubt, ask a more experienced person," which is what I'm doing here. People have a right to their opinions, but I did not ask for one. I also have done a few searches, but the "desired information-per-post ratio" is lower than desireable; but if I try to make the search more specific, no results pop up. But that happens with most searches. Thanks, everyone, for your replies.

[Ted T]

Hill,
It is good to hear your opinion because your opinion is valid to you as mine is to me. It gives an open forum for discussion and an exchange of ideas. I believe it makes this site a much better place to visit.
That is why we have an open forum.
I wish you the best as you help I forge Iron grow!
Ted Throckmorton

[Glenn]

Ted, your response to the posters questions is the reason this forum sucks. People ask questions to get information, not a preaching. Asking a question on these forums is like being on the xxxx Oprah show. Why is it so hard to for people that are new to the craft, to get a legitimate response to questions that they feel are important enough to ask on here? All I've saw as far as responses is "Do a search!!"..."Look in the archives!" or whatever it may be. Have you tried narrowing down information from all those threads? When was the last time all that was organized into something useful? It just burns me up that someone who has an interest cannot get on this forum and ask a question and find an answer instead of some disclaimer-type response that has nothing to do with the topic asked about. This is what discourages, not EN-courages others to have interest in Blacksmithing. Are there those on this forum that don't want to see others get into the craft and stay with the hobby or even make a business out of it? Is it just because that a person isn't a founding member of ABANA or have pictures of hammer-ins dated from the late 1970's? Is there forum trolls that sit back and just wait for an opportunity to give the "disclaimer speech"?? Why is it so hard to just answer a simple set of questions? The poster doesn't have a legitimate question? The poster doesn't deserve answers because maybe he's new to the craft?

Hill, with over 12,556 threads and 127,475 posts many questions have already been answered, some many times. The search engine is THE BEST way to find the information. The computer takes your request and quickly searches all the material on file to provide you with information that meets your search criteria. It is then up to you to read that material, and redefine your search criteria to do better searches.

When was the last time all that was organized into something useful?

Each time a post is submitted to the site the search engine is immediately updated. Currently that is over 100 times a day.

Are there those on this forum that don't want to see others get into the craft and stay with the hobby or even make a business out of it?

Maybe you have another forum in mind. As Site Administrator of IForgeIron if I found that to be the case I would ban that member, and have done so in the past. IForgeIron encourages (more than you will ever know) those new to blacksmithing and to the craft.

Is it just because that a person isn't a founding member of ABANA or have pictures of hammer-ins dated from the late 1970's?

Neither are a requirement to register for membership to IForgeIron.

Is there forum trolls that sit back and just wait for an opportunity to give the "disclaimer speech"?? Why is it so hard to just answer a simple set of questions? The poster doesn't have a legitimate question? The poster doesn't deserve answers because maybe he's new to the craft?

If you will re-read the thread, you will see that the original question from Iowa, USA was answered (in less than an hour) point by point by a person from Australia. In less than 18 hours there have been 5 direct and informative replies.

People do not have the time or the patience to help those that do not or will not first help them selves. By saying look at this reference, or do a search, it, the reference and search, will provide some answers. By actually taking the time to read the reference or to do the search, the person then becomes better able to ask more intelligent and better questions. THAT shows THEY have done their homework and seek additional answers. THAT is also the person that WILL get additional assistance. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it. That is how life operates.

By the way, after 19 posts, I am sure you have read it before. Please go to the top of the forum page, click on user CP, and add your location. It will help us provide you with better answers to your questions.

Also I do not see where you have taken the time to reply to the original question, or provide any answers or encouragement to the poster. You may want to take a moment to share some of your vast skill and expertise to assist him in his project. This is NOT a slam to you, but simply a request that you take the first step in answering your own question. "Why is it so hard to for people that are new to the craft, to get a legitimate response to questions that they feel are important enough to ask on here?"

[Rich Hale]

I think I should respond as I am in the same camp as Ted. Basics are basic and called that for a reason. When one of us refers you and suggests you look at a prior post on the subject, it for me, is for a specific reason. Many really smart folks on here have answered your question in depth in a manner that most folks can sort through and get the answer to the question they posed.

If this forum sucks as you see it, that lets me know once again that I live in America and we can indeed share our feelings in public. Keep an eye on this forum even though you are not pleased with it and check out the other places availeable to you for research. Find one you are comfortable with and it may satisfy your needs.

One criteria i use when deciding to use information I recive on line is: Who wrote this? why did they write this? and can this information be supported? I also use a similar thought process when i reply to a post or pose a question. If it is a reply I must number one have some personal knowledge of the question asked. I must have information from my training and experience that will make me believe I do have something to add that may help with the question. If there is written material accessible on this site that may be able to explain what I know to be true I feel obliged to reference that site.

You may also know that not all of the material I reference comes from just the old guard. There are many ideas obtainable on here that are the result of new folks learning the craft and sharing things that work. When I find something new that makes sence and can help my work i check it out and will reference that if it will help.

Why do I believe that I can help anyone new to the craft learn by suggesting they get the basics down and progress In a logical manner? I have taught students in many areas for several decades. I do not use methods that do not work for everyone..If it only worked for 60% of the students it is of no value to me. I want each student to learn with the tools I can offer. The last several years of my teaching was new students for 80 hours learning to do basic forging and making tools to be used for forging horse shoes and then on to making shoes. This included forge welding, forge brazing, drawing out stock to make it longer, bumping stock to make it shorter and thicker, punching holes, and fullering. Forging to strict size patterns and a rigid testing is at the end of the second week. This simply cannot be done without attention to basics from the very first day.

If you believe that folks can just haphazardly learn on there own and progress in skills I ask this: would you see a surgeon that has no knowledge of the internal parts of your body? It really is the same thing.

Now let me try and sell you on this plan: If you "make the cupcakes" and learn how things work and why, you may be able to eliminate the failed attempts and frustration that goes along with that.

I said I use references as support for my methods and or answers.

Look through the forums and see what folks have had problems with and try and figure out why. The problem solving area has a lot of questions about failures and the person has no idea how it could have happened. Many times they will post similar questions a few times and then disappear. I have to think at least a few of them gave up. Others on here have used failure as a way to get back to basics and move forward.

If you see this as me preaching, it was not meant to be that way.......or maybe I should pass a collection plate, who knows. I hope some of this makes sense to some of you and wish you well.

[Glenn]

As much as I appreciate all input and advice, it is true that I do not like to be preached to, hence the last paragraph of my post. I thank you for your response, but I like to have my questions answered, rather than my experience critiqued. I have received more than enough criticism on safety and technique to know not to do anything incredibly stupid. I have learned "when in doubt, ask a more experienced person," which is what I'm doing here. People have a right to their opinions, but I did not ask for one. I also have done a few searches, but the "desired information-per-post ratio" is lower than desireable; but if I try to make the search more specific, no results pop up. But that happens with most searches. Thanks, everyone, for your replies.

You got a point by point answer to your question within 45 minutes from Australia. You got 5 other answers in less than a day.

Using steel of an unknown composition, you and others can only guess at what might work. To properly get an answer, contact the auto manufacture and have them refer you to the original steel manufacturer to get the correct specifications and correct tempering (for leaf spring purposes) for that particular steel. They may or may not be able to give you guide lines for tempering that particular steel for other purposes. Your other choice is to send a sample of the leaf spring off for chemical analysis. Once you know the analysis, you can then ask if anyone has any suggestions as to tempering for this specific steel. Some may have worked similar materials and can look back through their research in order to assist you. Purchasing a known steel with a known analysis and a known tempering will make your life much easier, as the failure rate will go down and your success rate will increase. You will still have to do your own testing to be sure it meets your criteria for your project.

IForgeIron has pushed safety from the very beginning. You can be injured, damaged, or loose body parts in an instant. Safety reminders keep you aware that you have only one life and we would much rather you be alive, healthy, and have all your body parts. We can not however keep you safe, that is up to you and why it is called personal safety.

I also have done a few searches, but the "desired information-per-post ratio" is lower than desirable

You have done the first step. Now using the information gained from reading the results from your first search, redefine your search. IF that does not provide the information you wish, then go to the knife section of IForgeIron >Bladesmithing and specifically Heat Treating Knives, Blades etc which has 92 different threads on the subject.

You may want to go to the IForgeIron Friday Night LIVE Knife Chat held in the IForgeIron > Chat Friday at 10 pm eastern time. It runs for one hour and covers all aspects of knife making.

All this should get you started. IF you have read all the knife material (some 1732 threads) on IForgeIron, which is a blacksmithing site, you may want to do an internet search for knife making, bladesmithing, and sword sites. There are many sites out there that specialize in just that information. They may however be more difficult to navigate due to their specialization and using known materials. Just do an initial search, read, then redefine your search criteria.

There are other sites out there specifically dedicated to hear treating. Search them out, and they can give you specific advice for your application. Be aware that they are sometimes hard core and use high dollar, specifically designed, highly calibrated machinery. They are also on the cutting edge (pun intended) of their craft, and are writing the new standards in heat treating.

[bigfootnampa]

Hill I do not LIKE to mix into petty disputes on this forum (or any other) but I have been reading on this forum long enough to know that Ted T is a pretty supportive guy. I can assure you that he has done more than most here to encourage other smiths. I am sorry that you feel that "this forum sucks" but I am PRETTY sure that you haven't hung here long enough to really understand it... just based on that statement alone. I hope that you were just caught at a bad moment here and don't really mean what you wrote. there are quite a few world class smiths here and quite a few more pretty knowledgeable backyard smiths. They are mostly just amazingly generous with their knowledge and I am pretty sure that most of them had to learn it without the benefit of anything like this wondrous forum. In my own experience I have found that this seems typical of the smithing community as a whole. You are unlikely to find other hobbies/trades where the people involved are more welcoming... I have been involved in many craft/hobby organizations and I would say that the level of helpfulness I have encountered from the smithing community is a stunning surprise! Hang around until you get to know people here a bit better and you will surely see what I mean.

[rthibeau]

thanks to Ted, Glenn, and Rich for their posts.....saved me from spending a lot of time posting essentially the same in response to questions that indicate no research beforehand.

[Ten Hammers]

" People do not have the time or the patience to help those that do not or will not first help them selves. "

This is a friendly place. Extremely friendly. Yeah, what TED, Rich, Glenn and Richard said. Some here make their living in the trade.

[Dragons lair]

Just a note. We have here 2 teens (betcha) one has already posted "I know the answer" is probably in the forum but I am too lazy to look. I " don't want to be told---" The other states this forum sucks.

I am sure there is at least 1000yrs of smithing knowledge on this site. Too hard to find things? Stop partying and spend 2-3 hours a night read all the posts. Reread those of interest to you. I did. Knowledge and respect are earned not given.

Lastly what is an effective blade? Peel an apple, cut a finger? If you are so proud of them post a few pics. I will now go back and stand in the corner.
Ken

[ThomasPowers]

Part of the issue may be that those are really *NOT* simple questions to answer. The ASM handbook on heat treating is several thousand pages long and is only *1* of the books on the subject sitting on our shelves.

One of the problems is that we don't really have any control on what the manufacturer used---and it could have changed several times anyway. While many leaf springs have been 5160 other steels have been used with different heat treat requirements. Shoot I have run into *1* microalloyed strain hardened leaf spring---(low carbon it can't be quenched hardend for blades).

So you need to know how to test your steel to see if you are getting the best from it. A maker trying out a new steel type might do 20 or 30 test blades so as to be able to try out different temperatures to quench at, different quenchants and different tempering temps and test them to destruction to see what worked best.

Remember when you ask folks to re-type stuff already available you should be willing to pay for their time as you are asking them to spend their time so that you don't have to spend your time hunting stuff out. Standard shop rate should be around $100 an hour and most smiths don't type very fast....makes "Search" seem like a better deal doesn't it.

And if you haven't read "The Complete Bladesmith" or "The Master Bladesmith" by Hrisoulas you are trying to start out with one foot in a hole already. If your local library doesn't have them ask the desk about ILL ( Inter Library Loan) It's generally free or almost free and even remote places can get books from University libraries worth hundreds of dollars for you to check out! (New Mexico has a lot of remote to it too!) You may find out that having a couple of hundred pages written on the subject will do more for you than a page or two of web postings.

Finally most folks who have been smithing long enough to get good at it have run into throngs of people who want to do stuff but are not willing to put the effort into doing it. Wasting time helping folks who won't do their own work is a real drag on productivity and morale. So; many of us have a "crusty exterior" and will throw out some info to see if someone will go out and dig. If they show that they will go the distance then a veritable flood of information may descend on them. I never teach blademaking as my first class; however if you do well at my first class---a simple S hook, *then* I'm willing to help a student towards blademaking---and "doing well" does not mean that your S hook is perfect. I've had folks burn theirs in two but "pass" the class as I base it on: Do they listen and follow directions? Are they a safety hazard to others? Are they a safety hazard to themselves?

Edited August 13, 2009 by ThomasPowers

[Rob Browne]

Well said Thomas. I sometimes think that the lack of time searching is a product of our instant gratification society we have been building for many decades now. You reap what you sow.

[Guest mod07]

Also IF the poster was paying even a little bit of attention he would have noticed that we have an entire section devoted to Blade work. If they would have posted this in the Sword and Knives heat treating section, rather than general smithing area, the site moderators would not have to move (and re organize) it for him.

Edited August 14, 2009 by mod07

[Ten Hammers]

It is my humble opinion that if the originator of this thread still thinks the folks here are arrogant or condescending then so be it ( but it is not true). You start out with a chip on your shoulder you got issues anyway. BTW I live on the EDGE of nowhere myownself. Ask around the forum.

The old fat guy with the Pliers signs off.

[kbaknife]

http://www.knivesby.com/5160.html

(Frequently Asked Questions)

TCF -- Forging, Heat Treatment and Finishing

[Akad]

First of all, thanks to all you people who have responded to my thread, especially those who answered my question. However, I'd prefer that a simple question does not turn into an all out debate. I'm here asking questions to better myself, not to argue. I now I have a lot of good (if not great) information to work on. If I offended some one, I did not mean to, and you have my sincerest apologies.

And I also apologize for inconviencing the moderators if this was in the wrong forum. I thought I had put it in heat treating knives, blades etc, but apparently did not. (even though I thought it was part of the moderators' job to place stuff in the right forums and what not, so I don't see what the problem is if one of my first posts gets misplaced. My bad).

And Dragons lair, while I am a teen, I do NOT party. I have worked too hard for the body I have to have it slowly taken away by beverages that taste terrible and make people stupid.

I've read some things in the forums, but every person's blacksmithing/forging situation is different, and that's why I wanted my own thread for this topic.

Again, thanks to all for replying to my thread! :)

[Drako11]

Being a teen, Dragonlair, your post does kind of hurt a little bit. It seems to me you think very poorly of the next generation. I know that the next generation is in a rather poor state, but we are not all running wild and having parties. Most spare time I can gain when not finishing highschool, working at trade school, writing stories, or acting I devote into hard sweaty hours of smithing which I find fulfilling.

Anyways, Zanzetuken, glad you found what you were looking for. I can say that the reason some people jumped on you and your post is really just the way it was worded. You may not have meant intentionally to say or come off as impatient and blunt, but that is really the way it came off when I read it. If you go back and re-read what you have typed you may find that as well, and in the future you can better word your posts to get a more supportive answer. : )

In conclusion, I don't think that anyone's feeling's are hurt to bad here and we can all continue to support one another in our endeavors. Cheerio everyone! :D

[chuckster2.0]

I am a teen. I am inexperienced. When I am confronted with a large body of experience, I listen. Rich Hale, Glenn, Thomas Powers, and Steve Sells are people you can trust to guide on your way to become a great bladesmith. If you don't want their critizism (even that is a hard word), don't post. Many of these guys are right about the fact that you can find many answers on this site and that you can answer your own question. I have not asked very many questions, but when I did it was after I could not find anything on this site or google and that only someone with years of experience can answer. I have the highest amount of respect for these "master craftsmen" You should see some of their work. You can trust me when I tell you that even if you don't like some of their critizism, it will help you. But to answer your questions,
1. Forum search quench or google it. I split the difference http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f91/your-preference-heat-treating-1095-knives-13835/
2. and 3. The knife stickies have excellent information on heat treating. Guess who wrote it. Steve Sells!
4. Most people will tell you that they are either 5160 or 1095. the first two numbers tell you what alloy it is and the last two tell you how much carbon the blade contains.

Dragonlair, history tells us that no matter what generation it is, we all have our faults as a group. Every generation has done things that have harmed the world or society or moral values. But we must be patient with the next generation. We must also respect the elder generation Zanzetuken. Without doing either, no progress is ever made.

Edited August 31, 2009 by chuckster2.0