tips on forge welding

[P. Bedard]

I have to agree with the above posters. This sort of jump weld is NOT easy. Even for an old hand. A good, VERY clean fire, good blast and good flux are critical.
Good luck!

[Randy]

I forgot to add info about the fire. First it must be good and clean. Second it must be piled higher than you think you need. As you've seen you use a lot of fuel and you don't want gaps in it. Now heating the pieces, if they are about the same size it's easier as they will heat up at the same rate, but there may be hot and cool spots in your fire due to the type of grate you have, how the fuel is packed in or loose and basicly how even your air is coming through the fuel. So you may have to move the pieces in the fire in order for them to reach welding temperature at the same time. Now if the material are of different sizes, or materials, as in putting a steel face on a hammer, then you have to manipulate the pieces more. Start by putting the larger piece in first as it will take longer to heat. After it heats to an even orange or yellow depending on how thin the second piece is, then put in the second piece. If it starts to over heat then pull it slightly from the fires' center towards you. When the bigger piece is getting closer to welding temperature put the smaller piece close to the larger one, but don't let them touch. They'll stick together in the fire and if not positioned properly you'll have to yank and twist them a part and start over. Once they both are at welding temperature do the dance. (see post above)

As far as the flux goes, do what ever you are comfortable with as far as the type that you use and when you put it on. I use straight Borax, others use Black Magic, EZ-Weld, Climax, Anti-Borax, etc, and no flux.

When I give classes on forge welding I focus on the fire first. Control and maintenance of the fire is as important as hammering and maybe more important.

[Francis Trez Cole]

I have done it a few times but it all about clean metal heat all the way through and quick from fire to anvil better to have a striker to do the first hits get your wife to strike and when she see how hard it is she will give you the money for the welder. for me I found it more efficient to just weld it. or make the other way like mark aspery practice, practice, practice

[ThomasPowers]

Yup the blacksmith shop back in olden times was NOT a one person shop! That job would probably have had one guy per each piece, one guy providing air and one fellow shoveling charcoal. (with coal you might be able to cut 1 to 2 people down as the pieces don't shift as much and it burns at a slower rate)

How about punching the block to accept the end of the shaft and forge brazing it in place?

[double_edge2]

Try again, randy is right.
Deeper fire, and just enough air, always easier to shoof some off than to work with not enough...,,the to be, welded faces in the heat, two sets of tongs.
I would brush off the flux you used and just use the borax, sprinkled on at a med orange after a hot brushing.( not too much that it scabs). Come to heat not so quick, ( boil the flux and you end up with the oxidisation you wanted to avoid) and allow the heat to soak,....if one comes to heat quicker than the other, just raise it till the other catches up...
As it gets to heat (im no blacksmith, so i let it just hit sparkle, not full sparkle shower, just one or two from both bits, gives me a few second longer for a single operater)......join them in the fire and bring them across, drop tongs, or keep hold with one set, and gentle tapping. Hit too hard at the wrong time and you smudge your weld. Repeat the brush, re apply more flux, reheat again to further bed the weld side by side by side etc.
works for me after a go or two for tools.

[double_edge2]

Sorry, and I would do the flat to flat, less chance of inclusion of any sort, .....the flux needs to be forced out to allow the sticky metal to meet, funny added surface shapes and area just help to compromise the weld, and need funny hammering to force out the flux. Flat to flat for simple shapes are easier to join.

[evfreek]

Hi. Thanks for all the advice. It sounds like many of you have a lot of experience at this one. I think that many of the tips are good.

I just attended a demo of someone doing a similar thing. I mentioned my difficulties to an old smith in the audience, and he just had one word out of the corner of his mouth: MIG. The demonstrator might have heard this, because he said that it was very important to immobilize both pieces together. He said, resist the temptation to arc weld it, since even if you grind out the button, someone might see the trace. A couple of things I learned: very deep fire, lots of flux, and pay attention to the heat. The fire was more than a foot deep in coke. So, 8" in charcoal was probably not enough. And, the first attempt did not take, probably due to too low temperature. Also, the fire was big and hot, and it singed right through the gloves. So at least I am doing some of the wrong things right :). The demo was successful, and everybody learned a lot, including remediation.

[John-S]

I've been looking for a way to contribute something since everyone has been so helpful. I'm NOT expert at this, but perhaps I can help by passing along advice I was given and which *seems* to help me when forge welding.

Here's the advice I was given:

• Cheat to get things together. Tack welding has been mentioned, but I've wired things together (about the time the wire
burns off you're good to go). When making a carving or bbq fork I bend a loop in the end of the stock, forge weld it to itself,
and then cut through the end of the loop and form the two tines. The idea being to have only one piece to manage whenever possible.

•Heat it slowly. You want it hot all the way through, not just on the surface and it's easier to avoid burning it.

• Learn to judge the heat it is hard to look at once it gets really hot, some people say it "disappears" against the fire, I watch for it get shiny or greasy looking but it can weld colder than that. I've been told a piece of wire can be used as a probe to see if the metal is "sticky" I've not tried this.

• Try welding colder than you think is necessary. Burning metal doesn't weld well, a good solid connection can weld as low as room temperature in certain odd corner cases. (I'm a little skeptical but I've seen a guy jump weld pieces on a branding iron when the iron appeared to be just orange... ymmv)

• Avoid the "tire tread" scoring. Instead make the scarf smooth and slightly convex. The hammer blow will force oxidation, flux, dirt, etc. out the sides of the weld and avoid inclusions.

• If you can, weld right in the fire. Align or connect the pieces, bring them to heat, use a long "spoon" to flux, then clamp them together with tongs, preferably tongs with the jaws bent to a 90 degree angle.

Now, maybe someone can comment on how in the world you get the edges of the weld cleaned up. I've had much more trouble with that than the actual weld, but maybe that's another thread...

I sure hope this helps and isn't obvious redundancy.

[Frank Turley]

That is a tough weld, and if everything is not carried our properly, it is laible to be a weak weld. Francis Whitaker said that if the scarf preparation is correct and other factors are in line, you'll probably get the weld. To jump these pieces, the depression in the block should be more easily made with a counter punch, sometimes termed a countersink. This is a top tool with a haft. Schwarzkopf* suggests upsetting the block in the center before counter punching. However, this is difficult on thick material and can sometimes be skipped. The stem or shank is upset on the end and dressed to an angle that is slightly more acute than the counter punched angle. This allows the point of the shank to make contact first, thus squeezing the molten scale/flux out the sides.

In working by yourself and you're right handed, I think I would have the counter punched side facing down a little to the right side of the fire. Have a handle welded on the side of the block to eliminate the use of tongs. The upset shank will be on the left next to the block and can be handled with the left hand and with bolt tongs. When the weld is taking place, use link tongs. In withdrawing from the fire, both pieces are tapped on the anvil to allow some of the "soup" to fall on the floor. The right hand block is turned over, placed on the anvil face, and the shank is held vertically and tapped into the counter punched depression. The force of the blows increases in intensity as you work. Assuming the weld takes after one or more heats, the edges are cleaned up with a radiused necking tool, which is another top tool, or with a set hammer with a radiused bottom edge. If the inside corners of the joint are to be sharp, I would radius them first, sharpen them second with a square edged set hammer.

Again, in working by yourself with a top tool, you can buck the work against a hardy tool such as a square stake.

The welded handle on the block can be cropped and dressed at any point deemed convenient to the work.

*Ernst Schwarzkopf, "Plain and Ornamental Forging" Diagram, page 85. Can be loaded from Google; More; Books.

[Ric Furrer]

Dereck...think that this would make for another class?
Non-iron forging?
Silicon Bronze, aluminum,titanium,copper,monel...300 series stainless as an add on.
Maybe tie it into the welding program as well...TIG?

The title could be "Take the FEar out of forging..... Exploring the other metals on the periodic table"
hey I may use that myself....kinda catchy.

Ric

[ThomasPowers]

Don't forget hot forging of silver!

[Ric Furrer]

Don't forget hot forging of silver!

I left brass off the list on purpose..horrible stuff, but yes silver..forgot that completely Thomas.....I guess gold as well, but honestly I have only had fabrication experience with that metal thus far.
I do know a smith who forged out a pound of gold...said it moved easy.

A forged torque or leaf of silver would be good....3/8" square maybe.

Ric

[Dillon Sculpture]

25 thousand dollars under hammer = Good times!

[Ric Furrer]

25 thousand dollars under hammer = Good times!

well it was about 8 years ago..so..less costly I think.
The smith said he wished he had another pound to forge as he spent the time with the first worrying about it going wrong and not enjoying himself.

I wonder if Hoover and Strong or Fort Knox would let me set up a forge/hammer for a few days.....they could get it all back after...I just want to play.
I can picture five pound fan-like gold leaves hanging off the induction units there.

Ric

[ThomasPowers]

I used a one firebrick forge to work 1oz silver ingots into early medieval (mainly norse and anglo saxon) jewelry in my basement when it was too cold in Ohio to use the forge outside or in camp using a charcoal forge at events.

Fine silver was a joy to work hot as long as you didn't melt it in the forge! Sterling was a bit pickier and has firescale issues as might be expected.

Ah for the days of $5 troy oz silver!

[evfreek]

Hi Frank. Your suggestions look a lot like one of the old texts I read, and I picked up a few more of the steps while doing it. I found out that it was most effective to use regular tongs to manipulate the shank, but switched to ring tongs to pull it out for the weld. I used Brazeal type pickup tongs for the block, which was angled down and to the right over the fire.

Seeing the demo a few days later reinforced the learning from my mistakes. First, not hot enough. This is easy to say for a beginner, and it may be a lame excuse, but the demonstrator had the same thing happen. Not hot enough and no stick. Subsequent heats, the metal came out sparking slightly, and when he slung off, the "soup", it really came off like soup. Coke is much more friendly than charcoal, although he did singe his hands a bit, even through welding gloves.

I'm afraid that to move on, I will cheat a little bit. But, I haven't given up. I will try again, this time in a coke forge, at the spring conference.

[ornametalsmith]

I always enjoy seeing this THREAD .......POP up.

This made me laugh out loud........ "Take the FEar out of forging.... Exploring the other metals on the periodic table" VERY catchy!!!

AND.....something to "think about"........I use aluminum(6061-6063) when teaching beginners the BASICS of blacksmithing(forging). USUALLY only for the first hour or so....then ON TO HOT STEEL....:) There are a limits to what you can do......(i.e. it's harder to "upset" aluminum cold.....no where near as easy or dramatic as with hot steel.) But drawing, fullering, cutting, punching, twists and bends are no prob.

.....I've also suggested aluminum to beginners that want to keep practicing forging while they are waiting to buy/build a forge. All that is needed is a hammer, ASO and some 6000 series aluminum.

Cold forging aluminum takes the HEAT out of the equation, extends the "forging time" and enables them to concentrate on developing good hammer control. Much easier to develop "muscle memory" when you can swing the hammer 40-50 times..........or til you wear out.....instead of the normal beginner experience with hot steel.......which goes something like this.....they pull it OUT.....admire it GLOWING (that HEAT can be a lil distracting to the PYRO in all of us).....then once they realize that they are losing heat FAST....they try to get it on the anvil as fast as possible and start forging. IN the beginning they are lucky to get in....10-20 blows before it's time to put it back in the forge. Because we're ALL told that we'll " go to hell for hammering cold metal".......beginners usually need to be "coaxed" into stopping when the metal gets to dull red. :)



look forward to following this thread........again.

happy hammering..

ps......I've got a few vids on YouTube that show "cold forging aluminum".........fwiw.

[Trip]

Hey yall,

For the past 2 day's I have been having a world of trouble forge welding.
yes I am using flux (red flux and EZ-Weld)
I am getting it to (or I think) the right temp
And I wasn't wasting time between taking it out of the fire and the anvil

So got any idea what I am missing, or tell me how you weld.

Thanks,
Trip

[dablacksmith]

you would be better to find a smith in your area that can show you the first time.... All the descriptions in the world arnt as much use as a 30 minute demonstration from a good smith. I belong to the nwba group and at theyre getogethers there is usually a member with a coal forge showing how to forge weld a chain link...good practice ...

[MOblacksmith0530]

Things to consider when forge welding;
-Fire control in coal it needs to be a clean fire (no clinkers and ash to a minimum) and using indirect air blast (coal under the piece to burn up the oxygen before it gets to the work) and in gas a rich flame more gas than air fo rthe same reason.
-don't be afraid of getting it hot. I always like to see a sparkle or two coming off the piece
-Good scarf so that the scale and flux have a place to go
-Piece cleaned of scale at a red heat before fluxing
-bring it up to heat slowly to fast and the heat won't be deep enough
-And the one that eats my lunch ost often, DONT hit it too hard.
If you can get these under control you should be good.
I knew all this before I was sucessful regularly and what turned the trick for me was what dablacksmith said. Find a local smith and go weld with him. I watched Walt Hull from our group do it and then talked with him about it and we went back to the forge and did it again. I can't figure out what I did different with him than before but now forge welding doesn't scare me at all. I forge weld leaf bunches and I quench them hot and throw them on the floor to test for a good weld and they have passed more than 99 percent of the time. The ones that fail I can usually call before I toss them on the floor.
Practice after you have had sucess will make all the difference.

[CBrann]

I use an 8 oz ball peen, flat face to weld. If things are clean, fluxed and hot enough,a tap is all it takes to make 1 from 2. Start with same steel, get good at that, then move on to mild+high carbon steel or mixes of other steels..

Keep at it, remember what works and what does not, process of elimination will not solve the problem, but may make it more apparent.
Cliff

[robert hanford]

Personally, the above advice is wonderful, I might add that I have had more success using slightly thicker stock. The thin stock loses heat very fast.

[SmoothBore]

My first thought as well, ... was "Don't hit it too hard".

Just enough so that the flux, scale, dross, or whatever you like to call the surface impurities, are ejected from the weld surfaces.



.

[ThomasPowers]

Now; can you tell us if you have forge welded before and just started having a glitch?

Are you welding a billet. a basket, a drop the tongs weld?

Are you welding WI, mild, HC, tool steel or a mix?

I've been forge welding for over 25 years now and I have found some batches of steel just don't seem to like to weld. For them I go back to first principles: scarf, cleanliness, reducing clean fire, good flux, good timing and NOT HITTING TOO HARD and generally I can convince them to take a weld. (Some cold rolled seems to profit by having the faces ground, CR and Ni alloys need a more aggressive flux, etc)

[Sask Mark]

What type of material are you trying to weld? Sometimes I have problems welding rebar (I would assume that it's due to certain alloys being present that make welding more challenging).