Problem solving help for new folks.

[Rich Hale]

Seems like lately we have had a few new folks asking lots of the same questions that we have heard over and over for years. We have become really good at guiding these folks in the right direction to get the answers they need. Refering them to links, blueprints etc. seems to be the way to go. At least that has been my approach until now. I wonder if it was the correct approach. That has not worked for several new folks and I think I may have to search for a new way to help. It works for some but not all. I would like a method that would work for all but that is not going to happen anytime soon. Folks learn in many ways.
If I can see you do something or read a good article on it I can get close to doing it the first time or in a reasonable amount of time. Not everyone can do that or has the mechanical background that I was raised with. I started to smith by doing the repetative basics that I think are so important. Most of the new ones are specific goal oriented and want to by pass all that. They want to make a widget and that is all they want to make. The fact that it takes ten years to make that kind of widget is of no matter. They want to make a widget. And no they do not want to read about the history of widgets or how impossible they are to make.
Its like someone wanting to get some canvas on a frame and some oil paints and render a copy of a masters oil painting. But they do not see it that way. One of the ways that has been tried lately is to point out that very thing. You will most likely fail and we cannot help you if you do not do it my way.
A couple of the threads stress me as I see the frustration on both sides of this thing.
So I think for me I will try this approach. If asked I will offer my help if it will work. If it does not or is rejected I am done. Walk away knowing that I tried methods that have worked for others and they are not working this time. No hard feelings for me anyway and hopefully not from the other side. I will not insist that they go to a link suggested. If they wanted to they would have the first time. If I suggest a steel that I feel is the worlds best for making a widget and they use something else, not my problem..they will make what they make out of what they wish to.
I have had so many folks on here take my thoughts and turn them into things I would be proud to have made myself that I know that for some my methods work. (and most of the time they are methods I learned from some of you on here and have found them to be the right stuff) I vow to stay away from the back and forth bickering types of threads I have seen.
I love this place but not some of the things I have put my name in lately. This is about me..I think everyone should do what they believe is what they feel is right.

[Finnr]

I have to agree with Rich here and thank him as well. I am one of the people that he patiently helped. With out His coaching I would never have done my first billet. Now Whipping up a pattern weld isn't easy but I am pretty sure that following what he has said the thing is going to work.

As for me if asked , Sure I'll lend a hand and share anything I know. If the questioner won't take the time to put that information to use then I am finished as well.
Finnr

[Frosty]

I agree with you Rich and it gets frustrating sometimes, however I was probably at least as annoying when I was a teen. I know I'm glad Mother isn't subbed to the forum or I'd spend some red faced time if I griped.

I know I like to try things my way first, see if I can figure it out and sometimes I even come up with something new or once in a great while better. Who knows, maybe a kid CAN make a sword that'll cut the barrel off a machine gun or fell an oak with one cut if they don't know it's impossible. What do I know? I'm not a teenager.

Frankly I was spoiled by the Kidsmith faction I'm honored to call friends, best of the best in my opinion. Then we get a raft of normal teenagers and it makes me want to tear my hair out (Mother and Father must be laughing their butts off about now eh?) trying to explain basic stuff so I stop.

I welcome everybody I can, youngsters especially and look forward to answering their questions if they take my advice or not is fine with me. If they want to argue, so be it, I leave them to their own devices. Some come around, some go find someone to tell them what they want to hear.

Heck, I used to work with engineers who thought exactly that way. He (who can remain nameless) asks me how to weld a new front end on a pickup truck so I tell him do NOT weld on the truck frame. He asks around till he finds someone who says sure, go ahead no problem. He welds it up (with a 120v mig no less) and a month after putting his "restored" beauty on the road starts finding cracks in the frame where he welded it. He starts welding up the cracks and finally ends up with a totaled frame. But the guy at the GAS STATION said it'd work!

What do you do? I offer my best and if they take it fine, if not fine. Argue and I write you off till you learn some manners. I just hope they don't do themselves too serious a mischief before (if ever) they wise up.

If it gets too frustrating we can start a Yahoogroup for people with gripes about know it all teenagers. I'm sure THAT would be a cozy little bunch.

Heck, I wish I'd taken notes when I was a teen and knew it all.

Frosty

[keykeeper]

Amen brothers!

I check this forum everyday, sometimes multiple times per day. I try to help when possible, but I see a rash of the same basic questions, from new folks who don't (or won't) spend the time to search out the answer.

I think it boils down to impatience, and the extreme need of this certain demographic for instant gratification.

As to how to handle things of this nature, I'm with all of you and I echo your above comments.

[Steve Sells]

For me the reward of teaching is seeing the project grow beyond what I taught.

I want my people to learn how to do things, not just copy me. I follow the old adage of teaching a man to fish and plant, rather than just giving him a meal. When I see a noob asking the same old questions over and over again, I get upset they are not paying attention, BUT when the questions start to evolve and go past the original topics parameters of what I taught, WOW, that is what makes it worth while for me.

SO sometimes I get hate Mail for what I do here, I can live with that. As long as I see a possibility for returns like I have seen in some of my past teaching, I will take that risk.

And if they offend me too much, as staff I can Nuke their login like a World of Warcraft character:)

Edited May 13, 2009 by steve sells

[Dave Leppo]

Who knows, maybe a kid CAN make a sword that'll cut the barrel off a machine gun or fell an oak with one cut if they don't know it's impossible. What do I know? I'm not a teenager

Makes me think of old Norm the town Drunk. He was not a big guy, but he could lift a refrigerator onto the back of a pickup - because he was too dumb to know that it couldn't be done! (sorry for the hijack, but it's probably my MO)

[trying-it]

"God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
As it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
If I surrender to His Will;
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life
And supremely happy with Him
Forever and ever in the next." ( Serenity Prayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

[Avadon]

Exposure is everything. People who have been building things since they were a kid (i'm guessing that is many of us) are going to find it far easier to go through a process and interpret plans or even basic operation enough to build their own. Those who've never done much except for the occasional screw driver use and now decide they want to be an expert blacksmith are going to have a steep learning curve ahead of them and it is annoying when these people don't want to put in their dues, but rather want to start with achieving the experts results.

In the end i'm a firm believer that passion is everything. Passion gets you to the top of the mountain and will keep you dedicated to the work for countless years. Without passion the individual will get bored, frustrated, or disinterested and give up. Those with passion are the ones I try to help the most, because they have the can-do spirit and won't drag their heals. They'll go far with little and they'll respect the information far more then someone who just is trying this as a fad. That said, I really respect the world out of all the help i've gotten on this forum as well as numerous others. If people admire my efforts its only because i've stood on the shoulders of giants.

[CurlyGeorge]

I agree with you, Rich. I only hope that during my journey to becomming a smith, that I haven't been too big of a pain. I too like to try to pass on what knowledge I have, and hope that lessons can be learned from it. I'm sure at some point, I too am guilty of asking a question before I took the time to check the forum for the answer. Steve, don't "Nuke me", my friend. I'll try to continue to help where I can, and step back, when I should. This site is GREAT, and so are the folks that are here!!

[Frosty]

I think we're all guilty of asking before looking from time to time, that isn't the issue. What is are the folk who never look before asking and on occasion don't look at the answers before asking again.

Jer

[Steve Sells]

Good thread. I am surprised we don't have more input here yet. One thing I get annoyed about, is when a person is asking a question and I see great answers, then mixed in with all this a clueless person feels a need to throw out some nonsense, with no personal experience, maybe a U tube video or role playing game to back them up.

Maybe they just have a strong need to see their names in print, but it can make it very hard to learn for a noob who does not yet have the experience to tell the facts from the fantasy's, in essence it just gets the issues clouded.

I don't see any problem with posting opinions. I just feel its best to state facts separate from an opinion that wants to be heard.

[Sask Mark]

I think it boils down to impatience, and the extreme need of this certain demographic for instant gratification.

I think this sums it up very well.

Please understand that I'm not defending it, but I see this behaviour on other forums when young people get involved. It is hard for me to understand, but it is what it is.

Young people are from a generation that can have almost anything they want almost instantaneously. If they don't get it, it's usually someone else's fault. They have never had to attend the school of hard knocks to learn.

This has spread into the web speak that frustrates so many of us. Shaving a couple of letters out of a word in a text message has saved a second or two. This is not considered insignificant time in modern society (plus it's easierfor the texter). It has also dealt a blow to the english language.

My opinion of the issue this thread is addressing is the clash of a traditional art/craft/industry (forging) and the craftsmen/women that are dispensing their valuable device with the latest generation that has decided to take up the craft. Many of the veterans have learned the hard way (through experience and extensive formal training) while the younger smiths want to know it all NOW with little effort on their behalf. If the advice from the veterans indicates patience and effort is required, the rookies will often look elsewhere for the easier answer.

How this gets handled it is entirely up to each person. If a member is annoying you, ignore their posts. It will save you a lot of stress.

[unkle spike]

I don't like the "text speak". And try to actually spell, and then read my post before hitting the "post quick reply" button.

Times have changed, there is no patience anymore. Face it, we live in a Drive Through, instant society now.

However after a few "search the threads that has been covered" a person should get the general idea, if not then we all need to try to help....to a point.

I find myself lately starting replies to questions or threads, and not posting them, as said by Mr. Sells, if you don't have first hand knowledge on a subject, don't post what you "think" should be done, or give off hand inaccurate information. At the very least ask "am I contributing to the discussion, or distracting from it" before hitting the "post quick reply" button. Your opinion matters, but you must have your facts straight when addressing the questions. Or another member may point out the error of your ways. :rolleyes:

[CBrann]

I appreciate that I can ask questions, and get a variety of answers from people both more and less experienced then myself.

I am probably guilty of asking over covered questions, but I do search, and since not everyone uses the same terminology, the question gets asked again.

I kind of set a rule for myself, I only post about 1/3 of the things I think, because: "it is better to be though a fool then to open you mouth and prove it."

I would like to say I have gotten a lot of answers here from my own questions, mostly just from reading as much as I can, I think most newbies should read through the most recent months posts, all the BPs, and whatever else piques their fancy, before posting much. I did and it has kept me from asking the same question for the umpteenth time.

Thanks for your time guys and girls!! my hats off to you that would take a few minutes out of your life to add a little ease to mine.

[nelson]

Howdy guys, this is an interesting thread. As a no so young guy anymore, and having learned a couple facts of life by now, I can see in restrospective how I used to be, and understand how young guys behave. When we were young and inexperienced, full of energy and plenty time to waste and/or do what we please, many of us thought we knew it all, and would want to "get there" fast! Nowdays, I think it`s worse yet in this global world where human affairs take place more rapidly. We older and/or more experienced guys, got to be patient, not to say we don`t get p..... off with some actitudes from young and no so young guys. Teaching is learning, so we ought to take it as a challenge, hey again, but don`t take too far huh! If someone is off the wall, or don`t take the time to listen to some advise or to read what is posted, let`s tell him where they can get help, and if they guy is still deaf, well, telling him off in an educated manner, may be the way out. I agree with you guys, and Steve, the problem separating opinions from facts may be that at times we`re so sure that what we state are "facts".
In all, I haven`t been around this forum long, but it`s my believe that it`s a great place to learn and share openly not only techniques and our work, but also our believes regarding issues of almost any sort. The key thing here I think, is that we share, and at times we`ll get glad or upset, but the worst thing is that we become indifferent.I`m for feedback, constructive discussion, sometimes impulsive why not, so long as the interaction moves in a respectful manner, anything goes...At times, it may be a good idea to ask someone to explain what he meant by a comment, because often times a statement may be missunderstood. Nelson.

[arftist]

I am a member of another unrelated forum where this topic came up recently. The original poster posited that frequently asked questions should simply be given a link to a previous thread. Some of the respondents, however, pointed out that each time the topic is discussed, a litle more detail, a bit more info surfaces. I say, give us your links and your info. As far as trying to help the helpless, you can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

[thisaw]

As you can see from the number of posts that I have made, I don’t make many comments. It takes Microsoft Word, Spell Check, a Webster Dictionary and quite a bit of time just to be able to post the few that I have.

I want to thank Glen for this site and everyone who takes time to answer the questions.

For those whose stock reply to a repeated post is “search for it”, Please remember the size of this site. With the number of threads and posts on this site, it can take an act of congress to find the answer to a question.
For example; some time back someone asked where to find an anvil. (A nice simple question.) As it happened the following week I was on the other side of the state and stopped at a store that was within sixty miles of the posters location. I walked in and there set nine ( 9 ) anvils. When I asked about them the clerk said that they were all for sale. As there was no room in my wife’s car, I reluctantly left them there.
When I returned home, I spent over two weeks of multiple hour days trying to find the thread where the question had been asked. I knew that is was there, I knew what was asked, I knew what area of the state he was in and I had read it in the past week, But it still took over two weeks of hard searching to find. I finally found the post and sent him a Pm with the information.
When it comes to blacksmithing; while you are running marathons, I’m just learning to crawl.

Just my two cents….. Now back to lurking in the shadows

[CBrann]

I am not young nor old.. at 31 and have problems with the "Instant gratification takes too long.. " crowd. Too many people lack patience, and are pushy and rude. I am trying myself to slow down a little, having it in 5 minutes instead of 5 seconds won't kill me unless its O2.

I would suggest to those that say "Search for it" give a suggestion of what and where, that can be very helpful. I have seen some people looking for help and not even know a common term for it, so it make s searching that much harder.

And remember if you get help to thank the giver like your Mom taught you!!

[Frosty]

Good points about how hard it can be to find something with a search, especially if you don't know what it's called. Folk who ask for help finding something are usually either answered outright, given the best search terms or given a direct link.

As for having to find a specific post to let someone know you've run across something they're looking for, you can always post a new message with the info. Most of us don't mind a general announcement about a bunch of tools for sale.

A lot of this is age old, I remember my Father telling me I was always in too big a hurry, learn to walk before you run, look before you leap, learn to spin steel before you try SS, etc. etc. My great grand Uncle Bert and my Grandmother Frost said Dad was the same way in spades and I imagine their folks had the same gripe too.

Sure, the internet has sped things up considerably and raised the already unrealistic expectations of the younguns to new absurdly grandiose levels. Then again the church claimed learning to read and write would destroy society by eliminating a commoner's need for a good memory and spread "DANGEROUS" information at a ruinous pace.

The current "texting" version of language is a two fold thing:

First, it's exclusionist slang, just another one of the never ending run of code languages younguns make up to keep their folks from knwing what they're talking about. Can you dig it man? AND just like you and I, they'll have to learn to speak some form of intelligible English (or WhatEVERish) to earn a decent living and finally move out of their parent's basements.

The other factor is when texting first started up you had to pay by the character so the more you could abreviate, the more you could(can?) afford to say.

Same O same O.

Frosty

[Steve Sells]

IDK Frosty, my rents wer TL k?

[Frosty]

uGM, my rents were always 1stOM

[Steve Sells]

nothing like trying to learn a foreign language. Tried Ebonics once, but gave that up and switched to Japanese, it made much more seance.

[evfreek]

I'm not sure that the only problem is the search for instant gratification. There are many ways to accelerate one's pace of learning and success, and being pushy and closed minded is not one of them. I see a lot of this kind of problem with today's students, even including some I have taught. Now, these individuals are not what I would call young, maybe 50's to 60's. For the problem to be so pervasive, it must be culture. Most people do not create new ways of behaving out of their own heads. It comes from a trend pushed on them, almost irresistibly, by a faceless and intolerant society.

Along these lines, I sought to teach some "old-fashioned" virtues to the students: patience, obedience, discipline, observation, and listening. I was very quickly reminded, not only by the people who I mentioned this to, but also by grade school teachers, that these are no longer virtues, but rather, they are sorely outdated. They have a negative thing to say about each one of them. If you are patient, the world will rush by while you are waiting. If you are obedient, you will end up following other people's orders. If you have discipline, you will sit and suffer quietly while the world unjustly robs you of resources. If you are a good observer, you will end up listening to the superior achievers who can talk and lead. And you will watch helplessly while others grab the gains which you should have had a right to.

After setting me straight, these naysayers will add a personal affront by calling me old, as if it were undesirable. A lot of the time, they are significantly older than I am. When I ask when a kid can learn to keep his hands to himself and out of the danger zone of a punch press or off the hot stuff laying around the forge, they reply, "starting about age 80." I start feeling old, and it makes me grumpy.

So, one thing that we may be fighting are the "virtues" of a new generation. A person gets riled up, seething with moral indignation and righteousness, when his values are questioned by an outsider. We think that we are trying to help and educate, but the other person thinks that we are trying to deceive, seduce and corrupt. That's why it seems so hard. For example, I believe in commitment. If someone comes up to me and tells me that I should relax that virtue a little bit, or even worse, consider it a vice, I will see red so quickly that I will not be able to give anything further he says any sensible consideration.

[thisaw]

Frosty
I was trying to give a fellow newcomer a chance to get an anvil before someone out to make a buck got there. He's had time to get one if he wanted to so I'll post the information shortly.

[Wim]

I really like this thread, as we are talking about values that go much deeper than the basic blacksmithing knowledge.
It is about the relationship of one generation with the next. It is also about attitudes between craftsman and apprentice, between enthousiast and newbie.

I suppose, like Rich mentioned at the start, that everybody has his or her own learning process that works for them.

If I think of my own personal learning process, it always starts with a passionate interest in something, be it a technique, a trade, a new skill, an animal, whatever. I want to read everything that there is to know about the subject, and if possible talk to as many people that know as I can. And being a lone smith most of the year, the internet is the best source for me.

For our young friends, most of them far better equipped to surf then what I am, the Internet has become an endless source of communication. Maybe that contributes to the attitude of "I know it all", meaning only "I know where to find it".
Even though the "how to" information is an important part of the learning process, the most important and the most gratifying part is the to do part. Then you learn the skills you need for the task, and you discover, why a certain sequence was explained. And only then the thing becomes part of you.

It would be great if I could hand some skills and ideas to young people, I think you grow into a better understanding of what you do, when you explain the process to someone else, but yes it requires an open ear and an open heart on the recipient's side.

The problem is maybe the current transition from Industrial Age to Information Age, that's why young people are developing their communication and computer skills.