Rich Hale Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I have replied as best I coiuld to a couple of Mikes questions as I have a lot of times in the past. I believe Mike is really hungry for knowledge and it appears a bit impatient. I wish his mentor would meet his expectations. As that does not seem to be happening any time soon. He asks a lot of questions and That is apparently bothering some of us. Historically this is a reocuring problem since the start of this forum and I expect it will continue with different names for as long as the site exists. But...( you knew that was coming I bet) What is the site aboiut? Why do we answer questions? Is this not something we wish to deal with do to the volume? The content or what? It is my deep feeling that if anyone asks us a question and they do not seem to like our answers then we should not be offended. It is their choice to ask and our choice to answer. Period. I am again impressed how many of you have stepped up to the plate in order to guide Mike in his smithing. But, ( I know ) It is his and only his choice to decide if our answers work for him. A lot of folks have learned from the answers and links that have been posted in this series of threads. We all learn in different ways and we may not have found something that works for Mike. But lets face it if he gets nothing from your answers where does he go next? There is simply not a better site. If Mike was local I would invite him over and let him observe how I do things. Might work. Might not. However as much as I hate this I see my only choice is to not post to his questions. I just do not seem to help him in anyway. I just cannot put answers into words that work for him. That frustrates me and has not helped him. Sorry Mike...I have run out of skills that might push you ahead. Hope you find a plan....Rich Hale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I've had the same experience and have the same feeling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Hello, Thanks for raising this matter. The sense of humour in various countries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted T Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 (edited) Rich, I know this is very difficult decision for you to make. But I support your decision. I have been following the pattern of questions and answers that brought up the issue that you are writing about. I am all for giving second and third chances and opportunity to people, but there is a limit. I feel that each situation/issue must be evaluated and an appropriate action taken that will make it a win, win situation for all involved. I believe you have done that. I feel you and the other blacksmiths have always responded in a kind and helpful manner when this person repeatedly ask the same questions over again, and then post a conflicting question or response that would show up in different posts scattered all around the site. When solving an issue I have always believed it is important to confront the issue and not attack the person. I do believe you are indeed confronting an issue, and not attacking a person. In fact all you have done is try to HELP the person involved. I can see that it was becoming a behavior pattern that tends to erode the intended question / response format that has been established here. The reason I say this is due to the fact that when the person (who’s ever name it is) who has been given choices and opportunity over and over again and does not take advantage of what has been given to them, it becomes an enabling situation and eventually it just shows disrespect for other peoples time and expertise. The good that can come out of this is that it may be a wake up call for a person who is caught up in this modality. Life in general will not tolerate this behavior for long, nor should it here. It would not be doing the person involve any favors. I would also invite this person over to my shop if it were practical to do so, as I know others would. I hope for a positive outcome. Ted T. PS. Just one additional thought about why taking positive action at this time is a good thing. Recently a young man came onto the site and asked a simple question. The responses to his post were initially directed toward the negative side of the equation. This young man was quickly mistaken for some of the other people who have posted on the site that were similar in conduct as the person in question. I believe that this event happened only due to the frustration of the responders whose patents had been run down dealing with this issue at hand. Edited April 20, 2009 by Ted T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Ok well im sorry if im irritating you guys and you think that im wasting your time with my STUPID questions but i trully thought the words Problem solving would be to any question asked if you want i will stop asking questions and ill just look at pics and read the threads.but please explain to me when you talk about my behavior problem?Thanx DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 It has been explained, both in these forums, and in Private. Its all up to you now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lumpkins Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Mike Don't get upset and throw in the towel.. You'll get where you need to be. I got confidence in you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope686 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Hi guys I would like to through my hat in the ring here. First I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 yup but dont you guys worry because i think im starting to figure out how the site works,you see i didnt have alot of time on the net to read all the different posts to find my answer so i just asked it,but as i said im getting the hang of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 DM; The problem is that *you* didn't have time; so you expected the people trying to help you to spend more of theirs. Do you really think your time is more valuable that theirs? Would you be willing to pay $100 an hour for all time spent answering a question a second or more time? In general it's considered a good thing to make it as easy and painless as possible for people to help you; so research to see if a question has been answered before, think out the question so that all the details needed are available the first go. And think over and try the answers you get. Raising my kids we had a rule that the "third time you ask the answer is NO!" helped to deal with nagging kids and you can see the applications to outher situations... Pope; on the other hand if you asked the question it might be slightly different and so get a different answer that would cover a wider area and so enrich the answer pool available in the archives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 No what i meant is that i can only go on for about ten minutes at a time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 In any forum, it seems that some will take the "I'm superior" attitude, and use the ignorance of others to raise their level, if only in their own eyes, on the other hand, you have the people who are lazy and do not want to put in the time, and that also is an irritant. This site seems to have some of both, and most of us fall somewhere between the two, for those of us who have raised kids, and now, maybe like me, are dealing with grandkids, we can see the humor of the situation. I have a handicapped son who easily forgets what he has been taught the day before, so maybe I would tend to lean on the forgiving side a bit heavily, my thinking is, if you don't like what you are reading, for heavens sake, don't respond! The old adage goes, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything". If you have tried to help someone and it is not getting through, and you are frustrated, another old saying might be good for you, " fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweany Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 what divermike said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 lets put this to rest. I'm like Sweany ...what Divermike said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
element Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Well we all heat iron and strike it ( some just read). I believe Mike is a do-er not a reader and i envy that. I know the inexperienced will tend to read more in an attempt to make the learning curve easier, And that is not the case most times. You can read all you want and when you actually forge on a regular basis nothing is like you would expect. I myself am victim of information VS experience, But im working on it. I joined this site and it help me set up my forge and the good folk on here set me strait w/o being judgmental, Which is very easy to do. This is a forum, not a book! If someone has 'easy' questions that they could easily search by themselves then they should do it but i guaranty that a lot more members would have that same question so its all good. When i read someones post and i do not have anything good to say then i zip it and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 As a administrator-type on a discussion group in the technology area, I can assure you these kinds of problems: -People posting but not searching for their own answers -People asking poorly formed questions -New people not getting calibrated to the culture before posting -Old people getting tired of seeing the above happen over again The saying "Don't feed the troll" often applies, meaning "Ignore bad behavior" The best solution I have seen to these problems is to implement a system that encourages good questions, and rewards desirable behavior:Stack Overflow This is a question answering site that is tuned to programming question. It works best for questions that can be answered so I am not sure it works here. If the Powers That Be are interested, I understand there is a free version of the software that runs their site. I can help locate it. -Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 how bout we just boycott his posts? if he does notlearn from other people he may learn by hurting himself beacause he ignored other people. i learned the hard way when i did not listen to frosty's advice. now i realize more experenced smiths should be listened to. it worked for me maybe it wil work for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 urnesBeast, contact me please, PM or email. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 This is not aimed at any one individual, but is a general comment. Blacksmithing is not a spectator sport. In order to learn, you need do some research, read, and then get some metal hot and hit it with a hammer. From there it is back to the research and reading, followed by more hitting hot metal. With your new found but limited knowledge and experience, you can start to ask questions about things you do not understand. IForgeIron encourages anyone that wants to learn about blacksmithing and metalworking. We have one 10 year old that just joined at the suggestion of his teacher that has over 25 years of full time blacksmithing experience as a day job. Both are new to IForgeIron and the site is able to provide information and encouragment to both of these individuals, even though their needs are very different. To become overnight experts in blacksmithing is not going to happen. You have to pay your dues to this craft just like any other. You have to put forth the effort in order to get the return. Your results are directly porprotional to your desire and effort. IForgeIron is a great place as the folks here try to assist and support each other. Not all people learn at the same rate, and we do need to spend additional time with those individuals. Not all folks learn in the same way, and we need to adjust our teaching technique for those individuals. There is no reason to discourage anyone as, in time, they may become the next master blacksmith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 ok i dont think you guys understand what i ment,i can only use the internet on my friends computer for 10 minutes a day thats why i cant go and search for hours to find an answer.im not beeing rude or ungratful but thats my situation.soon i will have internet on my own Pc so ill be on forever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easilyconfused Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Before we had the internet on our farm, I'd spend hours at the library. They usually have access to blacksmithing books too. I assume you've read a bunch of books on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) Shoot back when I started smithing the internet didn't exist! There were dern few books on it too! Somehow I managed to find a book on it, (still have that one with smudged finger prints all over the pages from holding it with one hand while working the piece in the fire with the other. Weyger's "Modern Blacksmith" now in reprint as "The Complete Modern Blacksmith") Here in the USA we have what is called Inter Library Loan where small rural libraries can get copies of books from large city or even university libraries for their patrons. Costs me US$1 to get a copy of a rare or difficult to find book way out here in the boonies. (it's a 100 mile drive to my Dr...) *OR* you can admit to yourself you don't have the time to do this properly and go on to something else; no harm, no foul. Wasting other peoples' time will not get you friends in the smithing community. Time is all we are given in this world and so is the most valuable thing we have. I've taught over a hundred people their first lesson in smithing and have found that there are several catagorys of people that tell me they want to be a smith---there are the "Yes; but"s: These folks are all gung ho to smith; but there is a problem---Yes; But it's too expensive, I show them how to build a set up for under US$29, "Yes; But" they don't have the tools (hmmm it was made with a adjustable wrench and 1/4" drill and a screwdriver...). "Yes; But"; They can't get coal---I tell them that for the first 1000 years of the iron age coal wasn't used and you can make/buy charcoal almost anywhere, Yes; But they can't afford metal; so I show them where/how to get the metal for free, Yes But... I have learned to just start agreeing with them after the second "Yes; But" Then there are the others, example a poor student living in a dorm room. I showed him the basics of smithing it on the cheap and a month later he has a post vise in his dorm room and a work bench where his desk should be and 200 pounds of scrap under the bed and a self built gas forge chained out back of the dorm with the BBQ Grills... These folks are a joy to work with, it's like throwing gasoline on a fire---whoosh! Unfortunately they are a lot fewer in the population. Now Think; *which* type *you* want to be! We have no control over that; only you do! Edited April 23, 2009 by ThomasPowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 that college kid sounds like me. although i have more like 800 lbs of scrap. Mike could be a supe gung ho smith and he could just want to go out and learn from doing. let him burn himself enough to learn, but not really get hurt and he may just listen up more. just my .02 cents worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 His parents were worried that I would try to lure him out of college and into knifemaking as a career. They shouldn't have worried. I told him numerous times how much better it was having a good job that can support your smithing addiction. He's now a metallurgist for an open die forging company and hangs around here sometimes...and the blackguard has a larger triphammer than I do now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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